Altova Mailing List: xml-dev

[xml-dev] [Summary] The XML Namespace ... It is implicitly declared; - 9/4/2010 3:17:00 PM

Hi Folks,

I summarized our recent discussions on the XML namespace:

http://www.xfront.com/The-XML-namespace.pdf

Thanks to the following people for their contributions:

- David Carlisle
- Roger Costello
- Michael Glavassevich
- Michael Kay
- David Lee
- Evan Lenz
- Amelia Lewis
- Simon St. Laurent
- Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt
- Andrew Welch


/Roger

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Re: [xml-dev] Using the 4 Great XML Namespace Attributes - 9/1/2010 10:09:00 PM

On 01/09/2010 19:49, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> This is an extension of the discussion of a couple days ago where we
> discussed in-scope namespaces. It was noted then that the XML
> namespace is implicitly declared in every XML instance document. This
> message discusses how to use the 4 great attributes in the XML
> namespace. I welcome your comments.  /Roger

> --------------------------------------------------- Enabling Use of
> the Great XML Namespace Attributes
> --------------------------------------------------- Recall that the
> XML namespace (and the xml: prefix) is implicitly declared in every
> XML document. Thus, XML documents are primed for dropping the
> xml:lang attribute into any element, dropping the xml:id attribute
> into any element, and so forth.
>
> While the XML namespace is automatically available in every instance
> document, the attributes in it cannot be used unless you've
> explicitly designed your XML Schema to allow their use. Here's what
> you need to add to each element declaration:
>
> 
>
> It says that any of the 4 great attributes from the XML namespace can
> be dropped into the element.

You assume without saying so that XSD schema is used. there is no need 
to use an XSD schema before a document is used (fortunately!).
"cannot be used unless you've explicitly designed your XML Schema to 
allow their use" is rather misleading.

Also more importantly you fail to mention the different status of the 
xml attributes. xml:lang and xml:space are defined in the XML Rec, so 
are available for use with any XML parser.

xml:base and xml:id are defined in two separate specifications that 
systems may or may not implement, depending.

David

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Re: [xml-dev] Using the 4 Great XML Namespace Attributes - 9/1/2010 8:50:00 PM

> --------------------------------
> The Great XML Namespace Attributes
> --------------------------------
> The XML namespace contains 4 great attributes:
>
> 1.      The lang attribute: use this on an element to state the language of its content.
> 2.      The id attribute: use this on an element to uniquely identify it.
> 3.      The space attribute: use this on an element to state that you want its whitespace nodes preserved during processing.
> 4.      The base attribute: use this on an element to create a base URL; URL's within the element can be relative to the base URL.

Are they really great?  Should they be used at all?

Take xml:lang as an example, and it's use in XHTML.  Should you define
the language of the content at the XHTML level, or at the XML level?

To me it only makes sense to define it in XHTML, but if you read this:

http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20040429.092928424

...it's a bit of mess, ending with it has to be defined it at the xml
level.  I don't know why - is the intention the xml parser filters the
non-applicable languages, so the receiving application doesn't know
they exist?  What if you want to present a choice of available
languages?

A similar thing applies for id - do you want your parse to fail with a
message from the xml parser, or let your application manage uniqueness
and the duplicate id failure messages.


-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com

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[xml-dev] Using the 4 Great XML Namespace Attributes - 9/1/2010 7:34:00 PM

Hi Folks,

This is an extension of the discussion of a couple days ago where we discussed in-scope namespaces. It was noted then that the XML namespace is implicitly declared in every XML instance document. This message discusses how to use the 4 great attributes in the XML namespace. I welcome your comments.  /Roger

--------------------------------
Summary
--------------------------------
HTML has some great attributes--id, class, title--that can be dropped into just about any element. 

The XML namespace has 4 great attributes: xml:lang, xml:id, xml:space, xml:base. XML instance document authors should be able to drop those 4 great attributes into just about any element. The XML namespace is implicitly declared in every instance document, so the 4 great attributes are primed for use. However, to use them you need to design your XML Schema so that every element declaration has this:




--------------------------------
The Great HTML Attributes
--------------------------------
HTML has some great attributes--id, class, and title--that can be dropped into just about every element. Here's an example:

Mercury has a diameter 
       of 3,032.4 miles.
       It's distance from earth is 
       57 million miles,
       at the closest point in its orbit.

This is very nice.


--------------------------------
The Great XML Namespace Attributes
--------------------------------
The XML namespace contains 4 great attributes:

1.	The lang attribute: use this on an element to state the language of its content.
2.	The id attribute: use this on an element to uniquely identify it.
3.	The space attribute: use this on an element to state that you want its whitespace nodes preserved during processing.
4.	The base attribute: use this on an element to create a base URL; URL's within the element can be relative to the base URL.

These are attributes that instance document authors should be able to drop into just about every element in their XML document. Here are some examples:


	The Laughing Cow
	La Vache Qui Rit




        Illusions The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah
        Richard Bach
        1977
        0-440-34319-4
        Dell Publishing Co.



       



        
        ...
        
        ...
        
        ...


This is very nice.


---------------------------------------------------
Enabling Use of the Great XML Namespace Attributes
---------------------------------------------------
Recall that the XML namespace (and the xml: prefix) is implicitly declared in every XML document. Thus, XML documents are primed for dropping the xml:lang attribute into any element, dropping the xml:id attribute into any element, and so forth. 

While the XML namespace is automatically available in every instance document, the attributes in it cannot be used unless you've explicitly designed your XML Schema to allow their use. Here's what you need to add to each element declaration:



It says that any of the 4 great attributes from the XML namespace can be dropped into the element.

Here's an example where I declare a  element and state that any of the 4 great attributes from the XML namespace can be dropped into it:


     
            
                ...
            
            
     


You must do this for every element declaration. Yes, it is tedious. The good news is that in XML Schema 1.1 you will be able to declare "schema-wide attributes." Thus, in one fell swoop you will be able to state that the 4 great XML namespace attributes are available on every element.


--------------------------------
Example
--------------------------------
Create an XML Schema for BookStore. BookStore contains Books, which contain Title, Author, Date, ISBN, and Publisher. Design the schema so that instance document authors can drop into any elements any of the 4 great XML namespace attributes. Here is a sample instance document:



                           
        
                My Life and Times
                Paul McCartney
                1998
                1-56592-235-2
                McMillin Publishing
        
        
        
                Illusions The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah
                Richard Bach
                1977
                0-440-34319-4
                Dell Publishing Co.
        
        
        
                The First and Last Freedom
                J. Krishnamurti
                1954
                0-06-064831-7
                Harper & Row
        
        


Note the use of xml:lang, xml:id, xml:space, and xml:base.

Here is the XML Schema:



    
    
    
    
        
            
                
                    
                        
                            
                            
                            
                            
                            
                        
                        
                    
                
            
            
        
    
    
    
        
            
             
        
    
    
    
        
            
                
            
        
    
    
    
        
            
                
            
        
    
    


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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 9:19:00 PM

> That's an odd definition of "namespace node," to my mind.  You're
> asserting that each element node has three namespace "nodes" associated
> with it?

You might think it odd, but that is exactly what the XDM data model (and 
the XPath 1.0 data model before it) defines.

And it has some considerable advantages, notably that when you copy any 
subtree rooted at an element node, the copy automatically retains the 
full namespace context.

However, it has to be said that the model has confused a great many 
people, because (a) it is somewhat distantly related to the lexical view 
of XML that they see on the screen in front of them, and (b) they find 
it hard to envisage how it might be efficiently implemented. These two 
factors have led to a great deal of resistance to the model.

I think that if XQuery Update had bought in fully to the namespace node 
model, the namespace-related semantics of XQuery Update would probably 
be a lot cleaner.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 8:42:00 PM

I dont belive thats teh same thing as saying there are 21 ''namespace 
nodes''
The question being answered by

$ xpath++ "count(//namespace::*)" nlist.xml


Is (IMHO)
    SUM (
       For each Node
          Count the number of active namespace declarations
    )


Well maybe its pedantic asking of thast a unique ''node'' or not.





On 8/30/2010 3:50 PM, Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt wrote:
>> Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is
> this namespace declaration:
>
>>        
>
> 1) Not sure about "Implicit on the root element" (xpath++ from [1]):
> $ xpath++ "count(//namespace::*)" nlist.xml
> 21
> $ xpath++ "count(/namespace::*)" nlist.xml
> 0
> $ xpath++ "count(//*)" nlist.xml
> 7
> $ xpath++ "count(/|//*)" nlist.xml
> 8
> $ xpath++ "count(/*/namespace::*)" nlist.xml
> 3
> $
>
>
> 2) The implicit xml namespace declaration was the reason for
> " and name()!=''xml'' " in this XML serialization ([2]).
>
>      
>        
>          
>        
>      
>
>
>
> [1]
> https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=14455521�
> [2]
> http://www.biglist.com/lists/lists.mulberrytech.com/xsl-list/archives/201008/msg00186.html
>
> Mit besten Gruessen / Best wishes,
>
> Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt
> Developer, XML Compiler, L3
> WebSphere DataPower SOA Appliances
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> IBM Deutschland Research&  Development GmbH
> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Martin Jetter
> Geschaeftsfuehrung: Dirk Wittkopp
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Boeblingen
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 243294
>
>
>
>
> From:       "Costello, Roger L."
> To:         "xml-dev@lists.xml.org"
> Date:       08/30/2010 08:00 PM
> Subject:    [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope?
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Consider this XML document:
>
> 
>                  xmlns:N2=" http://www.example2.org ">
>          23
>          41
>          70
>          103
>          99
>          6
> 
>
> For the first child element:
>
>          23
>
> what namespaces are in scope?
>
> I created an XSLT template to output the  element''s in-scope
> namespaces:
>
> -------------------------------------------
> 
>         
>             
>         
> 
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Here is the output:
>
>        http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
>
>        http://www.example1.org
>
>        http://www.example2.org
>
> There are three (3) in-scope namespaces.
>
> Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is this
> namespace declaration:
>
>        
>
> NOTE: it is illegal to explicitly declare the xml namespace. The xml
> namespace is built into every XML application.
>
> Since the xml namespace is implicitly declared in every XML document, you
> can immediately use the xml:lang attribute and the xml:space attribute,
> e.g.,
>
> 
>               The Laughing Cow
>               La Vache Qui Rit
> 
>
> Here is an XSLT template to output the in-scope namespaces and their
> prefixes:
>
> -------------------------------------------
> 
>          
>              Namespace in scope =
>              Namespace prefix =
>          
> 
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Here is the output:
>
>        Namespace in scope = http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
>        Namespace prefix = xml
>
>        Namespace in scope = http://www.example1.org
>        Namespace prefix = N1
>
>        Namespace in scope = http://www.example2.org
>        Namespace prefix = N2
>
> QUESTIONS
>
> 1. Have I correctly analyzed the situation (regarding in-scope namespaces)?
>
> 2. What else would you add?
>
> /Roger
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
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-- 
David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org


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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 8:02:00 PM

I dont belive thats teh same thing as saying there are 21 'namespace 
nodes'
The question being answered by

$ xpath++ "count(//namespace::*)" nlist.xml


Is (IMHO)
    SUM (
       For each Node
          Count the number of active namespace declarations
    )


Well maybe its pedantic asking of thast a unique 'node' or not.





On 8/30/2010 3:50 PM, Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt wrote:
>> Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is
> this namespace declaration:
>
>>        
>
> 1) Not sure about "Implicit on the root element" (xpath++ from [1]):
> $ xpath++ "count(//namespace::*)" nlist.xml
> 21
> $ xpath++ "count(/namespace::*)" nlist.xml
> 0
> $ xpath++ "count(//*)" nlist.xml
> 7
> $ xpath++ "count(/|//*)" nlist.xml
> 8
> $ xpath++ "count(/*/namespace::*)" nlist.xml
> 3
> $
>
>
> 2) The implicit xml namespace declaration was the reason for
> " and name()!='xml' " in this XML serialization ([2]).
>
>      
>        
>          
>        
>      
>
>
>
> [1]
> https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=14455521�
> [2]
> http://www.biglist.com/lists/lists.mulberrytech.com/xsl-list/archives/201008/msg00186.html
>
> Mit besten Gruessen / Best wishes,
>
> Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt
> Developer, XML Compiler, L3
> WebSphere DataPower SOA Appliances
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> IBM Deutschland Research&  Development GmbH
> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Martin Jetter
> Geschaeftsfuehrung: Dirk Wittkopp
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Boeblingen
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 243294
>
>
>
>
> From:       "Costello, Roger L."
> To:         "xml-dev@lists.xml.org"
> Date:       08/30/2010 08:00 PM
> Subject:    [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope?
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Consider this XML document:
>
> 
>                  xmlns:N2=" http://www.example2.org ">
>          23
>          41
>          70
>          103
>          99
>          6
> 
>
> For the first child element:
>
>          23
>
> what namespaces are in scope?
>
> I created an XSLT template to output the  element's in-scope
> namespaces:
>
> -------------------------------------------
> 
>         
>             
>         
> 
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Here is the output:
>
>        http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
>
>        http://www.example1.org
>
>        http://www.example2.org
>
> There are three (3) in-scope namespaces.
>
> Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is this
> namespace declaration:
>
>        
>
> NOTE: it is illegal to explicitly declare the xml namespace. The xml
> namespace is built into every XML application.
>
> Since the xml namespace is implicitly declared in every XML document, you
> can immediately use the xml:lang attribute and the xml:space attribute,
> e.g.,
>
> 
>               The Laughing Cow
>               La Vache Qui Rit
> 
>
> Here is an XSLT template to output the in-scope namespaces and their
> prefixes:
>
> -------------------------------------------
> 
>          
>              Namespace in scope =
>              Namespace prefix =
>          
> 
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Here is the output:
>
>        Namespace in scope = http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
>        Namespace prefix = xml
>
>        Namespace in scope = http://www.example1.org
>        Namespace prefix = N1
>
>        Namespace in scope = http://www.example2.org
>        Namespace prefix = N2
>
> QUESTIONS
>
> 1. Have I correctly analyzed the situation (regarding in-scope namespaces)?
>
> 2. What else would you add?
>
> /Roger
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
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>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
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-- 
David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org


_______________________________________________________________________

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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 7:54:00 PM

> Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is
this namespace declaration:

>       


1) Not sure about "Implicit on the root element" (xpath++ from [1]):
$ xpath++ "count(//namespace::*)" nlist.xml
21
$ xpath++ "count(/namespace::*)" nlist.xml
0
$ xpath++ "count(//*)" nlist.xml
7
$ xpath++ "count(/|//*)" nlist.xml
8
$ xpath++ "count(/*/namespace::*)" nlist.xml
3
$


2) The implicit xml namespace declaration was the reason for
" and name()!='xml' " in this XML serialization ([2]).

    
      
        
      
    



[1]
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=14455521�
[2]
http://www.biglist.com/lists/lists.mulberrytech.com/xsl-list/archives/201008/msg00186.html

Mit besten Gruessen / Best wishes,

Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt
Developer, XML Compiler, L3
WebSphere DataPower SOA Appliances
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IBM Deutschland Research & Development GmbH
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Martin Jetter
Geschaeftsfuehrung: Dirk Wittkopp
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Boeblingen
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 243294




From:       "Costello, Roger L." 
To:         "xml-dev@lists.xml.org" 
Date:       08/30/2010 08:00 PM
Subject:    [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope?



Hi Folks,

Consider this XML document:



        23
        41
        70
        103
        99
        6


For the first child element:

        23

what namespaces are in scope?

I created an XSLT template to output the  element's in-scope
namespaces:

-------------------------------------------

       
           
       

-------------------------------------------

Here is the output:

      http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace

      http://www.example1.org

      http://www.example2.org

There are three (3) in-scope namespaces.

Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is this
namespace declaration:

      

NOTE: it is illegal to explicitly declare the xml namespace. The xml
namespace is built into every XML application.

Since the xml namespace is implicitly declared in every XML document, you
can immediately use the xml:lang attribute and the xml:space attribute,
e.g.,


             The Laughing Cow
             La Vache Qui Rit


Here is an XSLT template to output the in-scope namespaces and their
prefixes:

-------------------------------------------

        
            Namespace in scope = 
            Namespace prefix = 
        

-------------------------------------------

Here is the output:

      Namespace in scope = http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
      Namespace prefix = xml

      Namespace in scope = http://www.example1.org
      Namespace prefix = N1

      Namespace in scope = http://www.example2.org
      Namespace prefix = N2

QUESTIONS

1. Have I correctly analyzed the situation (regarding in-scope namespaces)?

2. What else would you add?

/Roger

_______________________________________________________________________

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_______________________________________________________________________

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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 7:27:00 PM

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:39:46 -0700, Evan Lenz wrote:
> In my XPath/XSLT training classes, I like to ask this quiz question: 
> How many namespace nodes are in this document? People are usually 
> surprised when they hear the answer is (for this case) 21.

You mean for the document that Roger posted?

>> 
>> >                xmlns:N2=" http://www.example2.org ">
>>         23
>>         41
>>         70
>>         103
>>         99
>>         6
>> 

That's an odd definition of "namespace node," to my mind.  You're 
asserting that each element node has three namespace "nodes" associated 
with it?  I would have thought that the only "nodes" were the 
declarations.  So I could see arguments for two, three, or nine such 
nodes (variation depending upon how one handled the implicit xml 
namespace declaration).

If namespaces-in-scope manifest as "nodes," do other scoped 
abstractions (like xml:lang) do the same?

Amy!
-- 
Amelia A. Lewis                    amyzing {at} talsever.com
The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart.
		-- Miles Vorkosigan
xerom:~/Projects amyzing$ 

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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 7:20:00 PM

How many namespaces fit on the head of a pin?

-- 
Simon St.Laurent
http://simonstl.com/

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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 7:11:00 PM

Hi Roger,

The only thing I'd change is that it is not illegal to declare the xml 
namespace, provided you use the correct namespace URI. "It MAY, but need 
not, be declared, and MUST NOT be bound to any other namespace name." [1]

In my XPath/XSLT training classes, I like to ask this quiz question: How 
many namespace nodes are in this document? People are usually surprised 
when they hear the answer is (for this case) 21.

Evan

-- 
Evan Lenz
Lenz Consulting Group, Inc.
http://lenzconsulting.com
+1 (360) 297-0087


[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-names/#xmlReserved

Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Consider this XML document:
>
> 
>                 xmlns:N2=" http://www.example2.org ">
>         23
>         41
>         70
>         103
>         99
>         6
> 
>
> For the first child element: 
>
>         23
>
> what namespaces are in scope?
>
> I created an XSLT template to output the  element's in-scope namespaces:
>
> -------------------------------------------
> 
>        
>            
>        
> 
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Here is the output:
>
>       http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
>  
>       http://www.example1.org
>  
>       http://www.example2.org
>
> There are three (3) in-scope namespaces.
>
> Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is this namespace declaration:
>
>       
>
> NOTE: it is illegal to explicitly declare the xml namespace. The xml namespace is built into every XML application.
>
> Since the xml namespace is implicitly declared in every XML document, you can immediately use the xml:lang attribute and the xml:space attribute, e.g.,
>
> 
> 	The Laughing Cow
> 	La Vache Qui Rit
> 
>
> Here is an XSLT template to output the in-scope namespaces and their prefixes:
>
> -------------------------------------------
> 
>         
>             Namespace in scope = 
>             Namespace prefix =           
>         
> 
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Here is the output:
>
>       Namespace in scope = http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
>       Namespace prefix = xml 
>
>       Namespace in scope = http://www.example1.org
>       Namespace prefix = N1
>
>       Namespace in scope = http://www.example2.org
>       Namespace prefix = N2
>
> QUESTIONS
>
> 1. Have I correctly analyzed the situation (regarding in-scope namespaces)?
>
> 2. What else would you add?
>
> /Roger
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
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>   



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Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 7:03:00 PM

"Costello, Roger L."  wrote on 08/30/2010 01:57:35 PM:



> NOTE: it is illegal to explicitly declare the xml namespace. The xml
> namespace is built into every XML application.

It is *legal* [1] to declare it provided that it's bound to the 'xml'
prefix (with namespace name 'http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace').

> Since the xml namespace is implicitly declared in every XML
> document, you can immediately use the xml:lang attribute and the
> xml:space attribute, e.g.,

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#xmlReserved

Michael Glavassevich
XML Parser Development
IBM Toronto Lab
E-mail: mrglavas@ca.ibm.com
E-mail: mrglavas@apache.org

Re: [xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 6:59:00 PM

> NOTE: it is illegal to explicitly declare the xml namespace. The xml namespace is built into every XML application.
>

Wrong. The Namespaces Rec states:

Namespace constraint: Reserved Prefixes and Namespace Names

The prefix xml is by definition bound to the namespace name 
http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace. It MAY, but need not, be declared, 
and MUST NOT be bound to any other namespace name. Other prefixes MUST 
NOT be bound to this namespace name, and it MUST NOT be declared as the 
default namespace.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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[xml-dev] Quiz: how many namespaces are in scope? - 8/30/2010 6:01:00 PM

Hi Folks,

Consider this XML document:



        23
        41
        70
        103
        99
        6


For the first child element: 

        23

what namespaces are in scope?

I created an XSLT template to output the  element's in-scope namespaces:

-------------------------------------------

       
           
       

-------------------------------------------

Here is the output:

      http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
 
      http://www.example1.org
 
      http://www.example2.org

There are three (3) in-scope namespaces.

Lesson Learned: Implicit on the root element of every XML document is this namespace declaration:

      

NOTE: it is illegal to explicitly declare the xml namespace. The xml namespace is built into every XML application.

Since the xml namespace is implicitly declared in every XML document, you can immediately use the xml:lang attribute and the xml:space attribute, e.g.,


	The Laughing Cow
	La Vache Qui Rit


Here is an XSLT template to output the in-scope namespaces and their prefixes:

-------------------------------------------

        
            Namespace in scope = 
            Namespace prefix =           
        

-------------------------------------------

Here is the output:

      Namespace in scope = http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
      Namespace prefix = xml 

      Namespace in scope = http://www.example1.org
      Namespace prefix = N1

      Namespace in scope = http://www.example2.org
      Namespace prefix = N2

QUESTIONS

1. Have I correctly analyzed the situation (regarding in-scope namespaces)?

2. What else would you add?

/Roger

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[xml-dev] XML documents with non-standard file extensions under - 8/26/2010 9:38:00 PM

Hi,

We are facing an issue with XML documents and Windows7. The issue does NOT
occur using Windows XP.

 

The objective:

We have XML documents with non-standard file extensions (in particular OASIS
Genericode files with a .gc extension) .

We want to configure Windows7 so that a Open or Doubleclick will display the
.gc file in InternetExplorer8. (there is a rendering stylesheet referenced
by the .gc file) 

 

The issue:

Windows7 has less options for configuring file types.

So far, we have not been able to achieve the above.

Whatever we try (including third party file type managers for Windows7),
when doubleclicking a .gc file it either:

-        Pops up a "File Download' window with a Open/Save/Cancel button
where Open loops back to the same "File Download" window, Save saves the
file with the same opening behaviour, OR

-        Internet Explorer starts up, but displays a "Navigation to webpage
cancelled" error.

 

Has anyone experienced the same issue, or perhaps found a solution to it?

 

Many thanks

Juerg Tschumperlin

Wellington, New Zealand

Re: [xml-dev] Tag libraries in XSLT / XQuery? - 8/26/2010 3:20:00 AM

Hi, Evan:

If I'm reading it correctly, that's a cool technique for selection and
configuration of portal features when rendering different kinds of
documents.  The practical value of the technique is clear (so thanks for
mentioning it).

I think JSP tag libraries pose the question whether a better separation of
concerns is possible if the page can pass sequences to tags and receive
sequences from tags (in callbacks).

Maybe that's as far as discussion can take it without a reasonable concrete
vehicle for inspection; thanks for kicking around the question in advance of
that.


Erik Hennum


On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Evan Lenz  wrote:

> Hi Erik,
>
> I think for most cases, basic XSLT processing, using a modified identity
> transform, should do the trick. Then, you simply define the tags in the tag
> library using normal XSLT template rules, as done here:
> https://code.google.com/p/rundmc/source/browse/trunk/view/tag-library.xsl
>
> This is part of the code I wrote in a project to create a back-end
> framework for the MarkLogic Developer community.
>
> Note that there are no pre-processors or other such acrobatics. Just a
> modified identity transform, with a (left-most-indented) template rule in
> the unnamed mode for each custom tag in the library.
>
> For example, the source for the current home page's content (at
> http://developer.marklogic.com) looks like this:
>
>   xmlns:ml="http://developer.marklogic.com/site/internal"
>  xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
>
>  Learn, share, discuss
>
>  
>   
>   
>   
>  
>
>  
>   Welcome to the MarkLogic Developer Community...
>   ...
>  
>
>  
>
>                        href="/learn/2009-07-search-api-walkthrough.xml"/>
>
> 
>
>
> As you can see, it's a mixture of regular XHTML and custom tags (in the
> "ml" namespace). Apply page.xsl to this and you get the final XHTML result
> in the browser.
>
> To see the custom tag implementations, just look at tag-library.xsl, e.g.,
> .
>
> So, in my opinion, XSLT is already an excellent implementation language for
> custom tag libraries. (And with products that let you mix-and-match XSLT and
> XQuery, you can get the best of both worlds.)
>
> If you wanted to extend it to support general XPath expressions (without
> using a pre-processor) you could use an eval() function, but I generally
> don't find the need to do that. Custom libraries are called "custom" for a
> reason. :-)
>
> Evan
>

Re: [xml-dev] Tag libraries in XSLT / XQuery? - 8/26/2010 12:07:00 AM

Hi Erik,

I think for most cases, basic XSLT processing, using a modified identity 
transform, should do the trick. Then, you simply define the tags in the 
tag library using normal XSLT template rules, as done here:
https://code.google.com/p/rundmc/source/browse/trunk/view/tag-library.xsl

This is part of the code I wrote in a project to create a back-end 
framework for the MarkLogic Developer community.

Note that there are no pre-processors or other such acrobatics. Just a 
modified identity transform, with a (left-most-indented) template rule 
in the unnamed mode for each custom tag in the library.

For example, the source for the current home page's content (at 
http://developer.marklogic.com) looks like this:



  Learn, share, discuss

  
    
    
    
  

  
    Welcome to the MarkLogic Developer Community...
    ...
  

  

  




As you can see, it's a mixture of regular XHTML and custom tags (in the 
"ml" namespace). Apply page.xsl to this and you get the final XHTML 
result in the browser.

To see the custom tag implementations, just look at tag-library.xsl, 
e.g., .

So, in my opinion, XSLT is already an excellent implementation language 
for custom tag libraries. (And with products that let you mix-and-match 
XSLT and XQuery, you can get the best of both worlds.)

If you wanted to extend it to support general XPath expressions (without 
using a pre-processor) you could use an eval() function, but I generally 
don't find the need to do that. Custom libraries are called "custom" for 
a reason. :-)

Evan

-- 
Evan Lenz
Lenz Consulting Group, Inc.
http://lenzconsulting.com
+1 (360) 297-0087



Erik Hennum wrote:
> Speculative XML Savants:
>
> I'm wondering whether a moral equivalent to JSP tag libraries [1] would
> be a useful addition to the XSLT / XQuery portfolio -- so that XML
> documents could use tags
>
> *  defined in an XSLT / XQuery module (instead of a Java class), and
> *  executed by an XSLT / XQuery processor (instead of a JSP container).
>
> The rationale for tag libraries (probably summarizing the familiar) is
> to establish a division of responsibility and collaboration between
>
> *  application developers who understand data access and manipulation, and
> *  page designers who understand visual layout and style.
>
> For an example, let's say an application developer creates a tag library
> with an query:people tag that queries attendee records by year and sorts
> the result list by first or last name.
>
> A page designer could then create an XHTML page with the query:people tag:
>
> 
>   
>     
> 
>   
>     
> Last Name First Name
{ $last-name  }, { $first-name }
>
> When supplied with the tag page and the tag library, a processor would
> generate an XHTML output page similar to the following:
>
> 
>   
>     
> 
>   
>     
>   
>     
>   
>     
> Last Name First Name
Crawford, Randy
Franklin, Aretha
Green, Albert

>
> Some potential scenarios for tags in XML processing environments:
>
> *  An XQuery tag library could provide views on an XML store for
>    integration and branding by HTML pages.
>
> *  An XSLT tag library could transform articles into content sequences
>    for layout as flows by XSL-FO book masters.
>
> XSLT Simplified Stylesheet Modules [2] already have several of the
> constructs needed for XML tag pages.  The legal XSLT statements include
> equivalents (such as xsl:for-each and xsl:if) for important core JSTL
> statements.  XSLT Attribute Value Templates [3] offer a parallel to the
> EL expression language.
>
> Simplified Stylesheet Modules would seem to need new constructs to:
>
> *  Import the XSLT / XQuery library modules that implement the tags.
> *  Execute value templates within element text (as with the $last-name
>    and $first-name expressions in the example above).
> *  Process tags as calls to library functions, passing the tag
>    attributes as function parameters and the tag content as a
>    callback (as with the attributes and content of the query:people tag).
>
> A XSLT or XQuery tag library module would seem to need new constructs to:
>
> *  Bind a tag name to its implementing function.
> *  Process callbacks zero or more times as appropriate.
>
> For experimentation, I put together a sketchy preprocessor [4] that
> converts an XHTML tag page and an XSLT tag module to intermediate XSLT
> files and then executes the intermediate XSLT files to produce an output
> XHTML document (supporting callbacks through Dimitre Novatchev's
> technique [5] for dynamic functions).
>
> This preprocessor has significant limitations with respect to callbacks.
> In particular, variables in scope at the definition of the callback
> fragment aren't in scope during processing of the callback fragment.
> One alternative might be to emit the tag implementation inline within
> the converted tag page.
>
> A really robust implementation of tag libraries may need native XSLT /
> XQuery anonymous functions.  (Having just noticed Dynamic Function
> Invocation [6] in the XPath 2.1 working draft, I'm wondering if that
> would help.)
>
> Anyway, that's the idea.  What do you think?  Wrongheaded?  Worth
> pursuing?
>
>
> Erik Hennum
>
>
> Acknowledgments:  The thought was triggered by a talk about virtual
> documents [7] by Vyacheslav Zholudev at the Balisage conference.
>
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSTL
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#simplified-stylesheet
> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#dt-attribute-value-template
> [4] http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_yrFnrTAZDGNGY3MjI2MTgtZGZjMS00ZDUwLTljNjgtNDg1NDdhNzY4NDE5&hl=en
>     CAVEAT:  only an experiment, may change completely or be abandoned
> [5] http://fxsl.sourceforge.net/
> [6] http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-21/#id-function-invoke
> [7] http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol5/html/Zholudev01/BalisageVol5-Zholudev01.html
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
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Last Name	First Name
{ $last-name },	{ $first-name }

Last Name	First Name
Crawford,	Randy
Franklin,	Aretha
Green,	Albert

Re: [xml-dev] Tag libraries in XSLT / XQuery? - 8/25/2010 3:09:00 PM

Hi, Michael:

That's very much what I'm suggesting with the addition of callbacks to
fragments of the simplified stylesheet. That is, m:graph might contain
an XML fragment which the m:graph template or function would invoke
with parameters. Such callbacks seem to have been important for the
sweet spot of JSP tag libraries.

I'll mull about changes that might make for a more serious preprocessor.


Thanks,


Erik Hennum


On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Michael Kay  wrote:
>
>  I think part of what you are proposing is something that retains the flavour of XSLT simplified stylesheets, but removes many of the restrictions; for example it might be simplified stylesheets plus the ability to import a function (or template?) library. XSLT simplified stylesheets never took off, probably because they are too simple. Enhancing them without going all the way to full XSLT would be tricky, because it's hard to find the right sweet spot.
>
> The other part of your proposal is perhaps some kind of standardized facility for defining XSLT extension instructions - another XSLT feature that has never really taken off. It wouldn't be difficult to provide some way of mapping the user syntax
>
> 
>
> to the underlying semantics of
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> (Or you could make the attributes AVTs rather than XPath expressions - it's not obvious which would be best).
>
> XSLT 2.0 chose not to go in this direction, focusing instead on a concise function call syntax for use in XPath expressions. But it might still have validity, and find favour with a different audience. Try doing a preprocessor, and see whether people like it.
>
> Michael Kay
> Saxonica

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Re: [xml-dev] Tag libraries in XSLT / XQuery? - 8/24/2010 5:36:00 PM

I think part of what you are proposing is something that retains the 
flavour of XSLT simplified stylesheets, but removes many of the 
restrictions; for example it might be simplified stylesheets plus the 
ability to import a function (or template?) library. XSLT simplified 
stylesheets never took off, probably because they are too simple. 
Enhancing them without going all the way to full XSLT would be tricky, 
because it's hard to find the right sweet spot.

The other part of your proposal is perhaps some kind of standardized 
facility for defining XSLT extension instructions - another XSLT feature 
that has never really taken off. It wouldn't be difficult to provide 
some way of mapping the user syntax



to the underlying semantics of







(Or you could make the attributes AVTs rather than XPath expressions - 
it's not obvious which would be best).

XSLT 2.0 chose not to go in this direction, focusing instead on a 
concise function call syntax for use in XPath expressions. But it might 
still have validity, and find favour with a different audience. Try 
doing a preprocessor, and see whether people like it.

Michael Kay
Saxonica


On 23/08/2010 02:03, Erik Hennum wrote:
> Speculative XML Savants:
>
> I'm wondering whether a moral equivalent to JSP tag libraries [1] would
> be a useful addition to the XSLT / XQuery portfolio -- so that XML
> documents could use tags
>
> *  defined in an XSLT / XQuery module (instead of a Java class), and
> *  executed by an XSLT / XQuery processor (instead of a JSP container).
>
> The rationale for tag libraries (probably summarizing the familiar) is
> to establish a division of responsibility and collaboration between
>
> *  application developers who understand data access and manipulation, and
> *  page designers who understand visual layout and style.
>
> For an example, let's say an application developer creates a tag library
> with an query:people tag that queries attendee records by year and sorts
> the result list by first or last name.
>
> A page designer could then create an XHTML page with the query:people tag:
>
> 
>    
>      
> 
>    
>      
> Last Name First Name
{ $last-name  }, { $first-name }
>
> When supplied with the tag page and the tag library, a processor would
> generate an XHTML output page similar to the following:
>
> 
>    
>      
> 
>    
>      
>    
>      
>    
>      
> Last Name First Name
Crawford, Randy
Franklin, Aretha
Green, Albert

>
> Some potential scenarios for tags in XML processing environments:
>
> *  An XQuery tag library could provide views on an XML store for
>     integration and branding by HTML pages.
>
> *  An XSLT tag library could transform articles into content sequences
>     for layout as flows by XSL-FO book masters.
>
> XSLT Simplified Stylesheet Modules [2] already have several of the
> constructs needed for XML tag pages.  The legal XSLT statements include
> equivalents (such as xsl:for-each and xsl:if) for important core JSTL
> statements.  XSLT Attribute Value Templates [3] offer a parallel to the
> EL expression language.
>
> Simplified Stylesheet Modules would seem to need new constructs to:
>
> *  Import the XSLT / XQuery library modules that implement the tags.
> *  Execute value templates within element text (as with the $last-name
>     and $first-name expressions in the example above).
> *  Process tags as calls to library functions, passing the tag
>     attributes as function parameters and the tag content as a
>     callback (as with the attributes and content of the query:people tag).
>
> A XSLT or XQuery tag library module would seem to need new constructs to:
>
> *  Bind a tag name to its implementing function.
> *  Process callbacks zero or more times as appropriate.
>
> For experimentation, I put together a sketchy preprocessor [4] that
> converts an XHTML tag page and an XSLT tag module to intermediate XSLT
> files and then executes the intermediate XSLT files to produce an output
> XHTML document (supporting callbacks through Dimitre Novatchev's
> technique [5] for dynamic functions).
>
> This preprocessor has significant limitations with respect to callbacks.
> In particular, variables in scope at the definition of the callback
> fragment aren't in scope during processing of the callback fragment.
> One alternative might be to emit the tag implementation inline within
> the converted tag page.
>
> A really robust implementation of tag libraries may need native XSLT /
> XQuery anonymous functions.  (Having just noticed Dynamic Function
> Invocation [6] in the XPath 2.1 working draft, I'm wondering if that
> would help.)
>
> Anyway, that's the idea.  What do you think?  Wrongheaded?  Worth
> pursuing?
>
>
> Erik Hennum
>
>
> Acknowledgments:  The thought was triggered by a talk about virtual
> documents [7] by Vyacheslav Zholudev at the Balisage conference.
>
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSTL
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#simplified-stylesheet
> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#dt-attribute-value-template
> [4] http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_yrFnrTAZDGNGY3MjI2MTgtZGZjMS00ZDUwLTljNjgtNDg1NDdhNzY4NDE5&hl=en
>      CAVEAT:  only an experiment, may change completely or be abandoned
> [5] http://fxsl.sourceforge.net/
> [6] http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-21/#id-function-invoke
> [7] http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol5/html/Zholudev01/BalisageVol5-Zholudev01.html
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
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Re: [xml-dev] Tag libraries in XSLT / XQuery? - 8/24/2010 5:33:00 PM

Hi, Philippe:

Thanks for the reference, RefleX looks impressive and ambitious
(a kind of all-in-one environment).

As you suggest, my question is much more modest:  what's the
_least_ addition to the XSLT / XQuery ecosystem that would support
contracts between application developers and page designers?

My answer is XSLT Simplified Stylesheet Modules++ with callbacks,
but I'm interested in other opinions (including disagreement that tag
libraries are good or needed).



Erik Hennum


On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 6:28 AM, Philippe Poulard
 wrote:
>
> Have a look at RefleX:
> http://reflex.gforge.inria.fr/
>
> It does more or less what you expect: there is a templating language, it is no based on EL but rather on XPath, there are existing libraries for most common usages, you'll be able to define your own tag libraries either with other tags (macro tags) or bound to some Java code, you'll be able to design declarative languages, you'll be able to run XPath expressions upon non-XML objects (such as a file system), it can be run within a servlet or in batch or even embedded in your own app etc etc...
> But the engine within which it works is neither an XSLT processor nor an XQuery engine.
>
>
> Erik Hennum wrote:
>>
>> Speculative XML Savants:
>>
>> I'm wondering whether a moral equivalent to JSP tag libraries [1] would
>> be a useful addition to the XSLT / XQuery portfolio -- so that XML
>> documents could use tags
>>
>> *  defined in an XSLT / XQuery module (instead of a Java class), and
>> *  executed by an XSLT / XQuery processor (instead of a JSP container).
>>
>> The rationale for tag libraries (probably summarizing the familiar) is
>> to establish a division of responsibility and collaboration between
>>
>> *  application developers who understand data access and manipulation, and
>> *  page designers who understand visual layout and style.
>>
>> For an example, let's say an application developer creates a tag library
>> with an query:people tag that queries attendee records by year and sorts
>> the result list by first or last name.
>>
>> A page designer could then create an XHTML page with the query:people tag:
>>
>> 
>>  
>>    
>> 
>>  
>>    
>> Last Name First Name
{ $last-name  }, { $first-name }
>>
>> When supplied with the tag page and the tag library, a processor would
>> generate an XHTML output page similar to the following:
>>
>> 
>>  
>>    
>> 
>>  
>>    
>>  
>>    
>>  
>>    
>> Last Name First Name
Crawford, Randy
Franklin, Aretha
Green, Albert

>>
>> Some potential scenarios for tags in XML processing environments:
>>
>> *  An XQuery tag library could provide views on an XML store for
>>   integration and branding by HTML pages.
>>
>> *  An XSLT tag library could transform articles into content sequences
>>   for layout as flows by XSL-FO book masters.
>>
>> XSLT Simplified Stylesheet Modules [2] already have several of the
>> constructs needed for XML tag pages.  The legal XSLT statements include
>> equivalents (such as xsl:for-each and xsl:if) for important core JSTL
>> statements.  XSLT Attribute Value Templates [3] offer a parallel to the
>> EL expression language.
>>
>> Simplified Stylesheet Modules would seem to need new constructs to:
>>
>> *  Import the XSLT / XQuery library modules that implement the tags.
>> *  Execute value templates within element text (as with the $last-name
>>   and $first-name expressions in the example above).
>> *  Process tags as calls to library functions, passing the tag
>>   attributes as function parameters and the tag content as a
>>   callback (as with the attributes and content of the query:people tag).
>>
>> A XSLT or XQuery tag library module would seem to need new constructs to:
>>
>> *  Bind a tag name to its implementing function.
>> *  Process callbacks zero or more times as appropriate.
>>
>> For experimentation, I put together a sketchy preprocessor [4] that
>> converts an XHTML tag page and an XSLT tag module to intermediate XSLT
>> files and then executes the intermediate XSLT files to produce an output
>> XHTML document (supporting callbacks through Dimitre Novatchev's
>> technique [5] for dynamic functions).
>>
>> This preprocessor has significant limitations with respect to callbacks.
>> In particular, variables in scope at the definition of the callback
>> fragment aren't in scope during processing of the callback fragment.
>> One alternative might be to emit the tag implementation inline within
>> the converted tag page.
>>
>> A really robust implementation of tag libraries may need native XSLT /
>> XQuery anonymous functions.  (Having just noticed Dynamic Function
>> Invocation [6] in the XPath 2.1 working draft, I'm wondering if that
>> would help.)
>>
>> Anyway, that's the idea.  What do you think?  Wrongheaded?  Worth
>> pursuing?
>>
>>
>> Erik Hennum
>>
>>
>> Acknowledgments:  The thought was triggered by a talk about virtual
>> documents [7] by Vyacheslav Zholudev at the Balisage conference.
>>
>>
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSTL
>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#simplified-stylesheet
>> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#dt-attribute-value-template
>> [4] http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_yrFnrTAZDGNGY3MjI2MTgtZGZjMS00ZDUwLTljNjgtNDg1NDdhNzY4NDE5&hl=en
>>    CAVEAT:  only an experiment, may change completely or be abandoned
>> [5] http://fxsl.sourceforge.net/
>> [6] http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-21/#id-function-invoke
>> [7] http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol5/html/Zholudev01/BalisageVol5-Zholudev01.html
>>

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[xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML vocabularies - 8/23/2010 8:18:00 PM

Roger, you first speak of "purpose" as if you were talking about what the tags mean, then you proceed to talk about the "prime app" for a schema, where "purpose" has now become something about the syntax.  A validator addresses syntax, not meaning (well, that's what I believe).  If a vocabulary is ascribed a primary purpose, I should think that would be about the business or social context and the goals of the creator of the vocabulary, not the syntax.

When we were creating WIPO Standard ST.36, we found that many different industrial property offices (IPO's) could ascribe a sufficiently similar meaning to each of the elements in the vocabulary to achieve the desired degree of interoperability.  I attribute this early blush of success to the fact that the DTD's were based largely on other WIPO standards related to various industrial property treaties that had existed for many decades.  In other words, someone else had already done the heavy lifting of building a common understanding of the business vocabulary.  We added the syntax.  We also specified which version of XML, XSLT, CALS, etc., that we'd use, in order to ensure the necessary level of syntactical interoperability.

Well, as it turned out, we were a bit naïve fifteen years ago.  A few years after ST.36 was ultimately published, we developed an "interoperability matrix" in which we examined the meaning assigned to, and internal processing associated with, certain key elements in the vocabulary, across some six different IPO's.  The result was a list of business rules that would require harmonization among IPO's in order to be able to process exchanged documents successfully, even if they did all conform to ST.36.  What had appeared to be "sufficiently similar" was often not sufficient for the intended purpose.

As others have pointed out in this thread, that might not matter in some cases, and indeed, it's the very foundation of certain XML-based use cases.  In other circumstances, it's a show-stopper.

At the moment, we're modernizing the editorial processes for the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure and the Trademark Manual of Examining Procedure.  They've been maintained independently for about sixty years.  It was a great relief to discover that we can use one XML Schema and one set of style sheets for both documents, nearly identical in the abstract, even if they diverge in most of the rules that they document.  The editorial workflows are also very similar.  

In this case, we're using the process of developing the Schema and style sheets to introduce the editorial staffs to each other and discussing their needs jointly in an effort to reduce the work needed to create the infrastructure system supporting them.  The level of interoperability we're after is all about the documents (rule books) and their maintenance, and not about the business (patents vs. trademarks).  

This suggests that there are at least three areas to consider when the goal is interoperability: business semantics, standardized syntax, and supporting infrastructure.  Adjust the level of conformity needed in each to achieve the desired result.

Bruce B Cox
Director, Policy and Standards Division
USPTO/OCIO/OPG
571-272-9004

These are my personal views, not those of the USPTO.

-----Original Message-----
From: Costello, Roger L. [mailto:costello@mitre.org] 
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:57 AM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML vocabularies specify meaning + behavior whereas others specify only meaning?

Hi Folks,

Thanks to Michael Kay, Ken Holman, and David Carlisle for their excellent inputs. 

Long ago someone on the xml-dev list said:

   An XML vocabulary is created for a purpose;
   otherwise, what's the point.

The purpose may be to do something, take an action, make a decision, etc. Even an XML vocabulary created to be purely informational (John likes cycling) has a purpose such as: make the information accessible. 

An XML vocabulary may be used for different purposes, but there is always a prime purpose. For instance, XML Schema may be used for different purposes but its prime purpose is validation. XSLT may be used for different purposes but its prime purpose is transformation.

I will use the term "Prime App" to mean an application that implements an XML vocabulary's prime purpose. Thus, an XML Schema validator is the Prime App for the XML Schema vocabulary. An XSLT processor is the Prime App for the XSLT vocabulary.

As a corollary to the above quote, I propose this:

   An XML vocabulary must have data interoperability;
   otherwise, what's the point.

I have often heard it said, "To achieve data interoperability each application must interpret/understand the XML vocabulary in the same way."

What better way to ensure the same interpretation/understanding than to use the same application!

I am led to these 3 conclusions:

1. When you create an XML vocabulary, specify the behavior of the XML vocabulary. Specify conformance requirements. Create a conforming Prime App. Create a test suite. Everyone use the Prime App.

2. Data interoperability is not achieved through shared understanding of the XML vocabulary. Data interoperability is achieved through shared usage of the Prime App.

3. Creating an XML vocabulary without specifying its behavior is a bad idea. It is a recipe for delayed data interoperability at best, failed data interoperability at worst. For example, the XHTML vocabulary does not specify behavior. Each browser vendor had their own idea of the proper behavior of the XHTML vocabulary. The result was years of non-interoperability. It's taken over 10 years for the vendors to finally converge on a common browser behavior. Browsers could have had (theoretically) common behavior 10 years ago had the XHTML specification specified behavior of the Prime App (browser) along with conformance and test suites.

Comments?

/Roger

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Re: [xml-dev] Tag libraries in XSLT / XQuery? - 8/23/2010 1:32:00 PM

Hi,

Have a look at RefleX:
http://reflex.gforge.inria.fr/

It does more or less what you expect: there is a templating language, it 
is no based on EL but rather on XPath, there are existing libraries for 
most common usages, you'll be able to define your own tag libraries 
either with other tags (macro tags) or bound to some Java code, you'll 
be able to design declarative languages, you'll be able to run XPath 
expressions upon non-XML objects (such as a file system), it can be run 
within a servlet or in batch or even embedded in your own app etc etc...
But the engine within which it works is neither an XSLT processor nor an 
XQuery engine.

Have fun !

Erik Hennum wrote:
> Speculative XML Savants:
> 
> I'm wondering whether a moral equivalent to JSP tag libraries [1] would
> be a useful addition to the XSLT / XQuery portfolio -- so that XML
> documents could use tags
> 
> *  defined in an XSLT / XQuery module (instead of a Java class), and
> *  executed by an XSLT / XQuery processor (instead of a JSP container).
> 
> The rationale for tag libraries (probably summarizing the familiar) is
> to establish a division of responsibility and collaboration between
> 
> *  application developers who understand data access and manipulation, and
> *  page designers who understand visual layout and style.
> 
> For an example, let's say an application developer creates a tag library
> with an query:people tag that queries attendee records by year and sorts
> the result list by first or last name.
> 
> A page designer could then create an XHTML page with the query:people tag:
> 
> 
>   
>     
> 
>   
>     
> Last Name First Name
{ $last-name  }, { $first-name }
> 
> When supplied with the tag page and the tag library, a processor would
> generate an XHTML output page similar to the following:
> 
> 
>   
>     
> 
>   
>     
>   
>     
>   
>     
> Last Name First Name
Crawford, Randy
Franklin, Aretha
Green, Albert

> 
> Some potential scenarios for tags in XML processing environments:
> 
> *  An XQuery tag library could provide views on an XML store for
>    integration and branding by HTML pages.
> 
> *  An XSLT tag library could transform articles into content sequences
>    for layout as flows by XSL-FO book masters.
> 
> XSLT Simplified Stylesheet Modules [2] already have several of the
> constructs needed for XML tag pages.  The legal XSLT statements include
> equivalents (such as xsl:for-each and xsl:if) for important core JSTL
> statements.  XSLT Attribute Value Templates [3] offer a parallel to the
> EL expression language.
> 
> Simplified Stylesheet Modules would seem to need new constructs to:
> 
> *  Import the XSLT / XQuery library modules that implement the tags.
> *  Execute value templates within element text (as with the $last-name
>    and $first-name expressions in the example above).
> *  Process tags as calls to library functions, passing the tag
>    attributes as function parameters and the tag content as a
>    callback (as with the attributes and content of the query:people tag).
> 
> A XSLT or XQuery tag library module would seem to need new constructs to:
> 
> *  Bind a tag name to its implementing function.
> *  Process callbacks zero or more times as appropriate.
> 
> For experimentation, I put together a sketchy preprocessor [4] that
> converts an XHTML tag page and an XSLT tag module to intermediate XSLT
> files and then executes the intermediate XSLT files to produce an output
> XHTML document (supporting callbacks through Dimitre Novatchev's
> technique [5] for dynamic functions).
> 
> This preprocessor has significant limitations with respect to callbacks.
> In particular, variables in scope at the definition of the callback
> fragment aren't in scope during processing of the callback fragment.
> One alternative might be to emit the tag implementation inline within
> the converted tag page.
> 
> A really robust implementation of tag libraries may need native XSLT /
> XQuery anonymous functions.  (Having just noticed Dynamic Function
> Invocation [6] in the XPath 2.1 working draft, I'm wondering if that
> would help.)
> 
> Anyway, that's the idea.  What do you think?  Wrongheaded?  Worth
> pursuing?
> 
> 
> Erik Hennum
> 
> 
> Acknowledgments:  The thought was triggered by a talk about virtual
> documents [7] by Vyacheslav Zholudev at the Balisage conference.
> 
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSTL
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#simplified-stylesheet
> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#dt-attribute-value-template
> [4] http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_yrFnrTAZDGNGY3MjI2MTgtZGZjMS00ZDUwLTljNjgtNDg1NDdhNzY4NDE5&hl=en
>     CAVEAT:  only an experiment, may change completely or be abandoned
> [5] http://fxsl.sourceforge.net/
> [6] http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-21/#id-function-invoke
> [7] http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol5/html/Zholudev01/BalisageVol5-Zholudev01.html
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> 


-- 
Cordialement,

               ///
              (. .)
  --------ooO--(_)--Ooo--------
|      Philippe Poulard       |
  -----------------------------
  http://reflex.gforge.inria.fr/
        Have the RefleX !

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Last Name	First Name
{ $last-name },	{ $first-name }

Last Name	First Name
Crawford,	Randy
Franklin,	Aretha
Green,	Albert

[xml-dev] [Deadline Extension] SAC 2011 Track on Coordination Models, - 8/23/2010 8:07:00 AM

*** Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this CfP ***


Deadline for paper submission to the Special Track on Coordination  
Models, Languages and Applications (CM) at SAC 2011 has been extended:

Paper submission (new date): August 31, 2010


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CALL FOR PAPERS

Coordination Models, Languages, and Applications (CM)
Special Track at the 26th Symposium on Applied Computing (SAC 2011)
TaiChung, Taiwan
March 21 - 25, 2011

(http://sac2011.apice.unibo.it/)


IMPORTANT DATES

Aug. 31, 2010: Paper submissions (NEW)
Oct. 12, 2010: Author notification
Nov. 2, 2010: Camera-Ready Copy


For the past twenty-five years, the ACM Symposium on Applied Computing has been a primary gathering forum for applied computer scientists, computer engineers, software engineers, and application developers from around the world.


TRACK ON COORDINATION MODELS, LANGUAGES, AND APPLICATIONS 

Building on the success of the twelfth previous editions (1998-2010), a special track on coordination models, languages and applications will be held at SAC 2011. Over the last decade, we have witnessed the emergence of models, formalisms and mechanisms to describe concurrent and distributed computations and systems based on the concept of coordination. The purpose of a coordination model is to enable the integration of a number of, possibly heterogeneous, components (processes, objects, agents) in such a way that the resulting ensemble can execute as a whole, forming a software system with desired characteristics and functionalities which possibly takes advantage of parallel and distributed systems. The coordination paradigm is closely related to other contemporary software engineering approaches such as multi-agent systems, service-oriented architectures, component-based systems and related middleware platforms. Furthermore, the concept of coordination exists in many other Computer Science areas such as workflow systems, cooperative information systems, distributed artificial intelligence, and internet technologies.

After more than a decade of research, the coordination paradigm is gaining increased momentum in state-of-the-art engineering paradigms such as multi-agent systems and service-oriented architectures: in the first case, coordination abstractions are perceived as essential to design and support the working activities of agent societies; in the latter case, service coordination, orchestration, and choreography are going to be essential aspects of the next generations of systems based on Web services.

The Special Track on Coordination Models, Languages and Applications takes a deliberately broad view of what constitutes coordination. Accordingly, major topics of interest this year will include:

- Novel models, languages, programming and implementation techniques
- Applications of coordination technologies
- Industrial points of view: experiences, applications, open issues
- Internet- and Web-based coordinated systems
- Coordination of multi-agent systems, including mobile agents, intelligent agents, and agent-based simulations
- Coordination in Service-oriented architectures and Web Services 
- Languages for service description and composition 
- Models, frameworks and tools for Group Decision Making 
- Modern Workflow Management Systems and Case-Handling 
- Coordination in Computer Supported Cooperative Work 
- Software architectures and software engineering techniques 
- Configuration and Architecture Description Languages 
- Coordination Middleware and Infrastructures 
- Coordination in GRID systems 
- Self-organization-based approaches to coordination such as those based on swarm and stigmergy 
- Coordination technologies, systems and infrastructures 
- Relationship with other computational models such as object oriented, declarative (functional, logic, constraint), programming or their extensions with coordination capabilities 
- Formal aspects (semantics, reasoning, verification)


PROCEEDINGS

Papers accepted for the Special Track on Coordination Models, Languages and Applications will be published by ACM both in the SAC 2011 proceedings and in the Digital Library.


PAPER SUBMISSION AND FORMAT

All papers should represent original and previously unpublished works that currently are not under review in any conference or journal.

The author(s) name(s) and address(es) must NOT appear in the body of the paper, and self-reference should be in the third person. This is to facilitate blind review. Only the title should be shown at the first page without the author's information.

Submitted papers must be no longer than 6 pages and in the ACM two-column page format (doc template, pdf template, latex template). It will be possible to have up to 2 extra pages in the proceeding at a charge of $80 per page (total 8 pages maximum).

Submission is entirely automated via the STAR Submission System, which is available from the main SAC Web Site:http://www.acm.org/conferences/sac/sac2011/.


PC MEMBERS

Farhad Arbab, CWI Amsterdam and Leiden University (Netherlands)
Marcello Bonsangue, Leiden University (Netherlands)
Rocco De Nicola, University of Firenze (Italy) 
Jose Fiadero, University of Leicester (Italy) 
Keith Harrison-Broninski, Role Modellers Ltd (UK)
Kurt Lichtner, Sybase iAnywhere (Canada)
Henry Muccini, University of l'Aquila (Italy)
Andrea Omicini, University of Bologna (Italy)
Manuel Oriol, University of York (UK)
Razvan Popescu, Trinity College Dublin (Ireland)
Antonio Porto, University of Porto (Portugal)
Rosario Pugliese, University of Florence (Italy)
Alessandro Ricci, University of Bologna (Italy)
Davide Rossi, University of Bologna (Italy)
Yasuyuki Tahara, National Institute of Informatics (Japan)
Carolyn Talcott, SRI International (USA)
Emilio Tuosto, University of Leicester (UK)
Michael Ignaz Schumacher, University of Applied Sciences (Switzerland)
Robert Tolksdorf, Freie Universitaet Berlin (Germany)
Mirko Viroli, University of Bologna (Italy)
George Wells, Rhodes University (South Africa)
Herbert Wiklicky, Imperial College London (UK)
PaweÅ‚ T. Wojciechowski, PoznaÅ„ University of Technology (Poland)


TRACK CO-CHAIRS

Matteo Casadei,
Alma Mater Studiorum - Universita' di Bologna, Italy


============
											 
	Dott. Ing. Matteo Casadei, Ph.D.		 
	Alma Mater Studiorum, Universita' di Bologna	 
	DEIS
	Via Venezia 52, 47521 Cesena (FC) - Italy

*****************

	phone:   	+39 0547 339210				 
	fax:		+39 0547 339208		 
	email:  	m.casadei@unibo.it		 
  	    	macasadei@deis.unibo.it		 
		 
	http://apice.unibo.it/xwiki/bin/view/MatteoCasadei/
									 
==============================================

	"Coping with things is not awkward because we 	 
        don't dare to deal with them. It's because we	 
        don't dare that they are complex.  (Seneca)"

==============================================








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[xml-dev] Tag libraries in XSLT / XQuery? - 8/23/2010 1:07:00 AM

Speculative XML Savants:

I'm wondering whether a moral equivalent to JSP tag libraries [1] would
be a useful addition to the XSLT / XQuery portfolio -- so that XML
documents could use tags

* defined in an XSLT / XQuery module (instead of a Java class), and
* executed by an XSLT / XQuery processor (instead of a JSP container).

The rationale for tag libraries (probably summarizing the familiar) is
to establish a division of responsibility and collaboration between

* application developers who understand data access and manipulation, and
* page designers who understand visual layout and style.

For an example, let's say an application developer creates a tag library
with an query:people tag that queries attendee records by year and sorts
the result list by first or last name.

A page designer could then create an XHTML page with the query:people tag:

Last Name
First Name
{ $last-name },
{ $first-name }

When supplied with the tag page and the tag library, a processor would
generate an XHTML output page similar to the following:

Last Name
First Name

Crawford,
Randy
Franklin,
Aretha
Green,
Albert

Some potential scenarios for tags in XML processing environments:

* An XQuery tag library could provide views on an XML store for
integration and branding by HTML pages.

* An XSLT tag library could transform articles into content sequences
for layout as flows by XSL-FO book masters.

XSLT Simplified Stylesheet Modules [2] already have several of the
constructs needed for XML tag pages. The legal XSLT statements include
equivalents (such as xsl:for-each and xsl:if) for important core JSTL
statements. XSLT Attribute Value Templates [3] offer a parallel to the
EL expression language.

Simplified Stylesheet Modules would seem to need new constructs to:

* Import the XSLT / XQuery library modules that implement the tags.
* Execute value templates within element text (as with the $last-name
and $first-name expressions in the example above).
* Process tags as calls to library functions, passing the tag
attributes as function parameters and the tag content as a
callback (as with the attributes and content of the query:people tag).

A XSLT or XQuery tag library module would seem to need new constructs to:

* Bind a tag name to its implementing function.
* Process callbacks zero or more times as appropriate.

For experimentation, I put together a sketchy preprocessor [4] that
converts an XHTML tag page and an XSLT tag module to intermediate XSLT
files and then executes the intermediate XSLT files to produce an output
XHTML document (supporting callbacks through Dimitre Novatchev's
technique [5] for dynamic functions).

This preprocessor has significant limitations with respect to callbacks.
In particular, variables in scope at the definition of the callback
fragment aren't in scope during processing of the callback fragment.
One alternative might be to emit the tag implementation inline within
the converted tag page.

A really robust implementation of tag libraries may need native XSLT /
XQuery anonymous functions. (Having just noticed Dynamic Function
Invocation [6] in the XPath 2.1 working draft, I'm wondering if that
would help.)

Anyway, that's the idea. What do you think? Wrongheaded? Worth
pursuing?

Erik Hennum

Acknowledgments: The thought was triggered by a talk about virtual
documents [7] by Vyacheslav Zholudev at the Balisage conference.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSTL
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#simplified-stylesheet
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#dt-attribute-value-template
[4] http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_yrFnrTAZDGNGY3MjI2MTgtZGZjMS00ZDUwLTljNjgtNDg1NDdhNzY4NDE5&hl=en
CAVEAT: only an experiment, may change completely or be abandoned
[5] http://fxsl.sourceforge.net/
[6] http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-21/#id-function-invoke
[7] http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol5/html/Zholudev01/BalisageVol5-Zholudev01.html

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Last Name	First Name
{ $last-name },	{ $first-name }

Last Name	First Name
Crawford,	Randy
Franklin,	Aretha
Green,	Albert

Re: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems - 8/21/2010 4:52:00 PM

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Tony Nassar  wrote:

> If you right-click in Firefox, you'll see that it knows very well that the
> type is text/xml. The one way I can see to get Firefox to render this in a
> useful way is to have Firebug installed, right-click in the window
> displaying simply "Test", and select "Inspect element," which will give you
> the DOM.
>

It's not necessarily the case.  Firefox only "knows very well that the type
is text/xml" if it has reason to know that.  We don't have enough info from
Paul M to decide that.  You are right, though, that the way to check is in
the "Page Info"menu.

There are also many ways to get FF to render it "usefully", including CSS
and XSLT.

Meanwhile, FWIW, a good a time as any to mention my article "Firefox 3.0 and
XML"

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-think41/

An article covering CSS and XSLT, tested on older FF versions, but should
still work the same:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-ffox2/index.html
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/tutorials/x-xmlcss/
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/tutorials/x-xmlcss2/
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/tutorials/x-xmlcss3/


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RE: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/21/2010 4:34:00 AM

On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 12:53 -0400, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> Consider XSLT. I can create an XSLT document and run it on my XSLT
> processor. I can send the XSLT document to you and you run it on your
> XSLT processor. We get the same behavior. We agree perfectly on what
> the  element means and how it should behave. Ditto for
> all the other elements and attributes in the XSLT vocabulary.
> 
> We have successfully interoperated. 
> 
> What enabled this?

(1) XSLT uses an XML syntax. The "XML Promise" is that any XML processor
is licensed by the XML Specification to read any XML document, and to
make that true, XML processors 9including parsers) must implement XML as
documented in the specification.

(2) The XSLT specification is, by and large, a well-produced document.

(3) There's a sufficient community of XSLT users who complain about
deviations from the XSLT (and XML) specifications.

(4) The specifications are esaily and freely available, so that it's
easy for people to check them.

> 
> What enabled the interoperability is the fact that we are using the
> same Prime App. (You may be using Xalan and I may be using Saxon; they
> both belong to the same class of Prime Apps.)

If it helps you to invent a term to describe the points I made above, go
ahead; I don't think "Prime App" is such a good term, though.

If you and I were using C compilers back in 1985 (say), we'd understand
that a C program had to be changed when you moved from one compiler to
another (there was no standard); if we we using Fortran compilers we
might have been better off, since there were standards, although it's
unlikely we'd have had access to copies, making it harder to report
bugs.

People spend (collectively) hundreds of millions of dollars each year in
writing HTML that will work in multiple Web browsers - the interop story
there is weak, largely because of a misapplication of "Postel's Law" in
the past (be liberal in what you accept and strict in what you put out):
the onus should not be on the recipient to correct errors, but on the
sender to emit correct data. Being liberal in what one receives does not
mean bending over backwards (or forwards) because the sender hasn't
bothered with the "strict" part. Of course, XML forces correctness and
does not have much of the "liberal", but at least we get
interoperability that way.

It's not at all about applications.

Liam

-- 
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Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Occasional Blog: http://www.barefootliam.org/

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Re: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/20/2010 5:51:00 PM

On 20/08/2010 17:53, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> Consider XSLT. I can create an XSLT document and run it on my XSLT
> processor. I can send the XSLT document to you and you run it on your
> XSLT processor. We get the same behavior. We agree perfectly on what
> the  element means and how it should behave. Ditto for
> all the other elements and attributes in the XSLT vocabulary.
>
> We have successfully interoperated.

This is all true but nothing to do with XML, the same could be said of a 
Fortran program, which you might compile with a different fortran 
compiler to me.
>
> What enabled this?
>
> What enabled the interoperability is the fact that we are using the
> same Prime App.
That's a particularly unfortunate terminology, most people would 
consider different XSLT implementations to be different applications.

(You may be using Xalan and I may be using Saxon;
> they both belong to the same class of Prime Apps.

But as I say above all the above is true of any defined language. What 
distinguishes XML is that the syntax is standardised separately to any 
application behaviour, so while it's quite hard to process a Fortran 
file (or c or java ...) without a specific language compiler, an XSLT 
file is XML which means that it can be used in other contexts without 
using an XSLT application, most notably it is easy to use XSLT as the 
source for a different transformation because it is XML which enables it 
to be used as data rather than being executed.

So it seems to me that the benefits a language gets by using an XML 
syntax are primarily that it's use is not tied to any particular 
application type.

David

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Re: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/20/2010 5:09:00 PM

I agree your example with XSLT is one use case.  I don't agree it should 
be generalized to all uses of XML.
I also suggest "Prime App" is misleading in the general case.  For XSLT 
and XHTML it may be a good description.
For many other types of XML it is not a good description.


On 8/20/2010 12:53 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>> If everyone used the same application there would be no need for data
>> interchangeability. "interchangeability" implies the possibility of>  1.
>> If everyone uses the same app XML would be irrelevant.
> I appreciate your feedback David and David. It is helping me to clarify and refine my argument.
>
> Consider XSLT. I can create an XSLT document and run it on my XSLT processor. I can send the XSLT document to you and you run it on your XSLT processor. We get the same behavior. We agree perfectly on what the  element means and how it should behave. Ditto for all the other elements and attributes in the XSLT vocabulary.
>
> We have successfully interoperated.
>
> What enabled this?
>
> What enabled the interoperability is the fact that we are using the same Prime App. (You may be using Xalan and I may be using Saxon; they both belong to the same class of Prime Apps.)
>
> I can create a second XSLT document and send it to you. Again, perfect interoperability. And a third. And so forth. The Prime App allows endless different XSLT transforms to be created, exchanged and executed with perfect understanding/interoperability.
>
>
> /Roger
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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RE: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/20/2010 4:56:00 PM

> If everyone used the same application there would be no need for data 
> interchangeability. "interchangeability" implies the possibility of > 1.
> If everyone uses the same app XML would be irrelevant.  

I appreciate your feedback David and David. It is helping me to clarify and refine my argument.

Consider XSLT. I can create an XSLT document and run it on my XSLT processor. I can send the XSLT document to you and you run it on your XSLT processor. We get the same behavior. We agree perfectly on what the  element means and how it should behave. Ditto for all the other elements and attributes in the XSLT vocabulary.

We have successfully interoperated. 

What enabled this? 

What enabled the interoperability is the fact that we are using the same Prime App. (You may be using Xalan and I may be using Saxon; they both belong to the same class of Prime Apps.) 

I can create a second XSLT document and send it to you. Again, perfect interoperability. And a third. And so forth. The Prime App allows endless different XSLT transforms to be created, exchanged and executed with perfect understanding/interoperability.


/Roger


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Re: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/20/2010 2:13:00 PM

On 20/08/2010 14:33, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> But they all behave the same way (at least theoretically).

they all behave completely differently, some return sax events, some 
return a DOM some return some other tree model at least one returns TeX 
tokens.... There is very little requirement in the XML Recommendation 
for an XML application to return anything at all.

David


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Re: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/20/2010 1:45:00 PM

I strongly disagree with both the premise and all 3 conclusions



> I have often heard it said, "To achieve data interoperability each application must interpret/understand the XML vocabulary in the same way."
>
> What better way to ensure the same interpretation/understanding than to use the same application!

If everyone used the same application there would be no need for data 
interchangeability.
"interchangeability" implies the possibility of > 1.
If everyone uses the same app XML would be irrelevant.  Thats not 
necessarily 'bad' but its not the best use case for XML.

I disagree that there is always a "Prime App".   There may be a "Prime 
Intended Purpose" or there may not be.
App and purpose are not the same.    The purpose may be concrete or 
abstract.

Take for example a VCARD standard which essentially encodes a persons 
name,address and phone number.
The "purpose" is to store and exchange this information with as *wide* a 
potential use ("App") as possible,
not to restrict it.   Imagine Printing cards, address books, email 
signatures, ...
Better yet imagine you haven't yet imagined to what use it will be put.



> I am led to these 3 conclusions:
>
> 1. When you create an XML vocabulary, specify the behavior of the XML vocabulary. Specify conformance requirements. Create a conforming Prime App. Create a test suite. Everyone use the Prime App.

An XML vocabulary may not have an intended prime behaviour.  see above



> 2. Data interoperability is not achieved through shared understanding of the XML vocabulary. Data interoperability is achieved through shared usage of the Prime App.
Data interchange is not achieved by shared use of a "Prime App"
Data interchange is achieved by defining the common vocabulary so any 
app that wishes to use the information may.

> 3. Creating an XML vocabulary without specifying its behavior is a bad idea. It is a recipe for delayed data interoperability at best, failed data interoperability at worst. For example, the XHTML vocabulary does not specify behavior. Each browser vendor had their own idea of the proper behavior of the XHTML vocabulary. The result was years of non-interoperability. It's taken over 10 years for the vendors to finally converge on a common browser behavior. Browsers could have had (theoretically) common behavior 10 years ago had the XHTML specification specified behavior of the Prime App (browser) along with conformance and test suites.

Creating an XML vocabulary without behavior is a perfectly good thing to 
do.   Specifying behavior is a orthogonal issue (or perhaps a subset 
depending on how you look at it).

The browser (xhtml) issue is so complex that I would not take it as a 
good example for a solid basis on design principals.
The problem there is that 'people' want different things from the same 
vocabulary, and not everyone can agree.
But we are at a place in technology right now where were forced to 
somewhat agree based on the assumption there should be 'one standard' 
that covers everyone's desire.   The result is somewhat of a mess right now.

I wouldnt look at xhtml for an example of what XML is all about.







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RE: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/20/2010 1:36:00 PM

David Carlisle wrote:

> It would have been a disaster if every XML process had had to use 
> whichever XML parser came first, or had to use the DOM for example.

Thanks David. I realize that I was not clear on this.

The XML Processor is a perfect example of my thesis. The class of XML Processors is the Prime App for XML. At the very heart of XML interoperability is the XML Processor. Xerces-J, Xerces-C++, and Expat are instantiations of the Prime App. One XML Processor may be selected over another because it is smaller or faster or is implemented in a particular programming language. But they all behave the same way (at least theoretically).

Here's another example: For (X)HTML the Prime App is the class of Web browsers. Firefox and IE are instantiations of the Prime App.

/Roger

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Re: [xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML - 8/20/2010 12:20:00 PM

On 20/08/2010 12:57, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> 2. Data interoperability is not achieved through shared understanding of the XML vocabulary. Data interoperability is achieved through shared usage of the Prime App.
>

I'd say that is the most extreme opposite of the XML (SGML) philosophy
that one could imagine.

You can have a binary opaque format and a unique application that
processes that data, or...

You can take the view that data is the primary thing and so long as the
data is encoded in a documented (or even partially self documenting)
format such as XML, different applications that may use completely
different internal models may share the data effectively.

It would have been a disaster if every XML process had had to use
whichever XML parser came first, or had to use the DOM for example.

Why should Maple interpreting MathML use any code shared with a browser
displaying the same MathML? What is the Prime application?

David

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[xml-dev] RE: Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML vocabularies - 8/20/2010 12:01:00 PM

Hi Folks,

Thanks to Michael Kay, Ken Holman, and David Carlisle for their excellent inputs.

Long ago someone on the xml-dev list said:

An XML vocabulary is created for a purpose;
otherwise, what's the point.

The purpose may be to do something, take an action, make a decision, etc. Even an XML vocabulary created to be purely informational (John likes cycling) has a purpose such as: make the information accessible.

An XML vocabulary may be used for different purposes, but there is always a prime purpose. For instance, XML Schema may be used for different purposes but its prime purpose is validation. XSLT may be used for different purposes but its prime purpose is transformation.

I will use the term "Prime App" to mean an application that implements an XML vocabulary's prime purpose. Thus, an XML Schema validator is the Prime App for the XML Schema vocabulary. An XSLT processor is the Prime App for the XSLT vocabulary.

As a corollary to the above quote, I propose this:

An XML vocabulary must have data interoperability;
otherwise, what's the point.

I have often heard it said, "To achieve data interoperability each application must interpret/understand the XML vocabulary in the same way."

What better way to ensure the same interpretation/understanding than to use the same application!

I am led to these 3 conclusions:

1. When you create an XML vocabulary, specify the behavior of the XML vocabulary. Specify conformance requirements. Create a conforming Prime App. Create a test suite. Everyone use the Prime App.

2. Data interoperability is not achieved through shared understanding of the XML vocabulary. Data interoperability is achieved through shared usage of the Prime App.

3. Creating an XML vocabulary without specifying its behavior is a bad idea. It is a recipe for delayed data interoperability at best, failed data interoperability at worst. For example, the XHTML vocabulary does not specify behavior. Each browser vendor had their own idea of the proper behavior of the XHTML vocabulary. The result was years of non-interoperability. It's taken over 10 years for the vendors to finally converge on a common browser behavior. Browsers could have had (theoretically) common behavior 10 years ago had the XHTML specification specified behavior of the Prime App (browser) along with conformance and test suites.

Comments?

/Roger

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Re: [xml-dev] Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML vocabularies - 8/19/2010 1:33:00 AM

On 18/08/2010 21:46, Michael Kay wrote:
> With XSLT it's a little less likely that anyone would do anything very
> useful with a stylesheet other than execute it, but it's certainly a
> theoretical possibility.

Although one of the main reasons that xslt is xml is so that it can be 
used as source data rather than being executed (often so that it can be 
transformed by another xslt stylesheet).

David

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Re: [xml-dev] Data Interoperability ... Why do some XML vocabularies - 8/19/2010 1:00:00 AM

At 2010-08-18 15:13 -0400, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>I see two kinds of XML vocabularies:
>
>1. Those containing markup that has been assigned both meaning and behavior.
>
>2. Those containing markup that has been assigned only meaning.

I boil that down to one kind of XML vocabulary:  a set of labels 
associated with bits of content.  What you do with what is at the 
label is up to you ... it isn't up to the vocabulary.  XML is for the 
interchange of content ... applications implement meaning and behaviour.

>1. MARKUP HAS MEANING + BEHAVIOR

Or "Content has labels that imply meaning and behaviour to a 
particular audience" because another audience might have a very 
different interpretation of meaning and behaviour to the same labels 
of the same instance.

The markup is used for the successful interchange of content ... the 
content has the implied meaning and the behaviour.

>When an XML vocabulary is created each element and attribute is 
>specified with:
>
>    - a meaning
>    - the behavior of applications that process the element

... by a particular community of users.

>    XSLT: the XSLT specification describes the
>    meaning of  as well as its behavior:
>
>    -  identifies a collection of nodes.
>      That is meaning.
>
>     - A compliant tool must iterate over each node
>       identified by the select attribute and execute
>       the nodes within . That is behavior.

Consider that  has one "meaning and behaviour" for an 
XSLT processor, but the same element in the same instance has a very 
different "meaning and behaviour" for my XSLStyle XSLT documentation 
methodology:

   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/resources/#xslstyle

Same labels ... same content ... different interpretation.  My 
stylesheets interpret the construct as having a particular 
indentation and highlighting because my application is a 
documentation application, not a transformation vocabulary.  In 
Costello-speak (which I don't agree with) XSLStyle sees XSLT as 
meaning only, no action.  Does that make it "wrong"?

>Test suites are created for this kind of XML vocabulary. Test suites 
>are used for ensuring that applications _behave_ in accordance with 
>the specification.

The test suites are for the applications, not for the 
vocabulary.  One is testing the veracity of the application acting on 
the labeled content as desired or specified.  A schema tests the use 
of a vocabulary against a particular set of markup constraints ... 
but the same instance could be validated with different schemas in 
its life cycle because at different times there may be different 
markup constraints.

>2. MARKUP HAS ONLY MEANING
>
>When an XML vocabulary is created each element and attribute is 
>specified with just meaning.

No, just labels.  Meaning is expressed in the documentation.  Unless 
that is what you mean by "specified with".  Different specifications 
can dictate different behaviours with the same labels of the same 
instances.  The XML vocabulary is no different because the XML 
vocabulary only specifies the interchange of the content.  How the 
content is used is the scope of a different specification.

>1. Why are some XML vocabularies created with meaning + behavior 
>whereas others are created with just meaning?

How about saying "interpretation" instead of "meaning"?  Different 
specifications dictate differently how to interpret the content under 
the same labels.  Thus, to use Costello-speak (which I don't agree 
with), the same vocabulary will have different "meaning" to different 
users.  Therefore the vocabulary doesn't have "a" meaning, it may have many.

>2. I noticed in my examples that the XML vocabularies which specify 
>meaning + behavior are machine-oriented whereas the XML vocabularies 
>which just specify meaning are eyeballs-oriented. Should I 
>inductively conclude that:
>
>    - All XML vocabularies that are machine-oriented should specify 
> meaning + behavior
>    - All XML vocabularies that are eyeballs-oriented should specify 
> only meaning

Why do you say "all" and "only"?

Is the following "meaning only" or "meaning and behaviour"?

      Turn off breaker
      Remove faceplate
      Disconnect device
      Remove device
      Install replacement
      Install faceplate
      Turn on breaker

The interpretation of "task" is that it collects a set of steps whose 
relative order represents a relationship between sibling steps beyond 
just being siblings, that the siblings are ordered.  The 
interpretation of "step" is that it is one of a set of siblings that 
is ordered after the ones labeled before it and before the ones 
labeled after it.  Do the steps in the wrong order (which isn't the 
purview of the XML labels) and you can get hurt.

In the framework of your question today, does  have a 
behaviour-related meaning?  It is describing an action.

>3. Is the goal of XML to maximize interoperability?

Yes, but only at the level of interpreting the granularity of and 
labels on content and, in my opinion, no further.  The goal of XML is 
to label content unambiguously to different processors that implement 
the XML processor the same way.  The goal of XML is to deliver the 
same information to different applications.  What people do with the 
content using their applications is their business and outside the 
scope of XML.  A community of users of a particular vocabulary may 
wish to agree to handle the labeled content in the same fashion, and 
they may use a specification with which to come to agreement.

A schema shared between users ensures the markup constraints on 
content are applied the same by all ... "information interchange" is 
promoted by using XML ... "interoperability" by applications will be 
up to the specification agreed on by participants.

>4. If the answer to (3) is "yes" then shouldn't every XML vocabulary 
>be specified with both meaning and behavior?

How about turning that around:  applications are specified with 
behaviour and the interpretation of labeled content in XML documents 
that is marked up according to an agreed-upon XML vocabulary and its 
associated schema.

Focus on the content, not on the markup ... the markup is only used 
to deliver the content and label it.

>5. Firefox and IE behave nearly identically. Is that almost 
>miraculous in light of the fact that the XHTML specification says 
>nothing about how the markup should behave?

I shouldn't think so.  The XHTML specification dictates the 
interpretation of the labels of XHTML and the two development teams 
implemented the same interpretation for the task of presenting the 
marked-up content in a web browser.

But Firefox and IE and all the other screen browser applications are 
not the only applications that interpret XHTML.

An XHTML document can also be seen as a resource discovery document 
by an application that has nothing to do with presentation and so 
isn't at all related to Firefox and IE.  That "meaning" for XHTML 
labels on content is documented in the XHTML specification as 
"relating online information via hypertext links" with which one 
using RDDL labels enhances it by describing what kind of content is 
anticipated to be found at the other end of the link.

Your point would seem to imply that the sole purpose of XHTML is to 
paint a browser screen.

>6. I also noticed in my examples that the XML vocabularies which 
>specify meaning + behavior involve binary operations:
>
>       XML Schema validates XML (The operator is "validate" and the 
> operands are the XML Schema and the XML)

... when interpreted by a schema validating processor.

>       XSLT transforms XML (The operator is "transform" and the 
> operands are the XSLT and the XML)

... when interpreted by a transformation engine.  XSLT produces 
nicely-presented documentation when interpreted by XSLStyle, works 
successfully, and has nothing to do with a transformation in that context.

UBL invoices create cheques to cash at a bank when interpreted by a 
company that owes someone money.  UBL invoices create a pretty piece 
of paper when interpreted by XSLT/XSL-FO stylesheets.

I think you have to dissociate application behaviours from XML 
vocabularies.  Different applications will behave differently with 
the same XML vocabulary.  The vocabulary only enables successful 
content interchange, not content interpretation.

>   Whereas the XML vocabularies which just specify meaning involve 
> unary operations:
>
>       Display XHTML (The operator is "display" and the operand is XHTML)

Or the operator is "relate" and the operands are one XHTML document 
with the source link and a second XHTML document with the 
anchor.  That is two operand "documents" with one operator 
"relate".  Not unary.

>       Display RSS  (The operator is "display" and the operand is RSS)
>
>   Should I inductively conclude that:
>
>    - All XML vocabularies that are involved in binary operations 
> should specify meaning + behavior
>    - All XML vocabularies that are involved in unary operations 
> should specify only meaning

I wouldn't.

>7. For perfect (or nearly perfect) interoperability, must an XML 
>vocabulary specify both meaning and behavior?

An XML vocabulary specifies only the interchange of information 
between applications and does so by using labels and granularity.

A community of users must agree to deal with the labeled content in 
agreed-upon ways.

A different community of users must agree to deal with the same 
labeled content in their agreed-upon ways.

I hope this helps.

. . . . . . . . . Ken

--
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Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
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Re: [xml-dev] A little experiment to compare external entities and - 8/18/2010 3:25:00 PM

Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> 3. The XML parsers in IE and Firefox do not support XInclude, correct?

But you can learn them to resolve XIncludes. It is possible to write
simple XSLT stylesheet which will replace xi:include elements with
referenced content. Browser can be instructed to run this transformation
automatically by placing  processing instruction at
the beginning of XML file.

It's kind of hack, but in theory it should work.

				Jirka

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------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems - 8/17/2010 9:32:00 PM

If you right-click in Firefox, you'll see that it knows very well that the type is text/xml. The one way I can see to get Firefox to render this in a useful way is to have Firebug installed, right-click in the window displaying simply "Test", and select "Inspect element," which will give you the DOM. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Manos Batsis [mailto:manos_lists@geekologue.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:09 PM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems

On 08/17/2010 05:39 PM, Paul M wrote:
> I have this xml:
> 
> 
> Test
> 
> 
>
> Firefox will attempt to render this as html.
>
>
> 
> 
> Test
> 
> 
>
> Firefox will attempt to parse this as xml.
>
> The response type has no affect on Firefox behavior.

Weird. I'd first verify what is the MIME FF actually figures this to be 
(i.e. right click, page info or something). Maybe you are not actually 
sending the right headers.

hth,

Manos

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Re: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems - 8/17/2010 7:02:00 PM

On 08/17/2010 05:39 PM, Paul M wrote:
> I have this xml:
> 
> 
> Test
> 
> 
>
> Firefox will attempt to render this as html.
>
>
> 
> 
> Test
> 
> 
>
> Firefox will attempt to parse this as xml.
>
> The response type has no affect on Firefox behavior.

Weird. I'd first verify what is the MIME FF actually figures this to be 
(i.e. right click, page info or something). Maybe you are not actually 
sending the right headers.

hth,

Manos

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RE: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems - 8/17/2010 6:54:00 PM

Sorry Paul, you're right. I should have tried this before I posted.

From: Tony Nassar [mailto:tnassar@palantir.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:40 PM
To: xml-dev
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems

I've never seen Firefox display *any* namespace information. It's not interpreting your XML as XHTML; it's simply rendering it in a fashion we don't like. If someone knows a Firefox setting to fix this, I'd be happy to learn.

From: Paul M [mailto:pjmaip@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:39 AM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems

I have this xml:

                 Test

Firefox will attempt to render this as html.

                Test

Firefox will attempt to parse this as xml.

The response type has no affect on Firefox behavior.

Is there any method to force the first file to be parsed as xml and not rendered as xhtml with the namespace include?

Any information  appreciated...

RE: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems - 8/17/2010 6:44:00 PM

I've never seen Firefox display *any* namespace information. It's not interpreting your XML as XHTML; it's simply rendering it in a fashion we don't like. If someone knows a Firefox setting to fix this, I'd be happy to learn.

From: Paul M [mailto:pjmaip@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:39 AM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: [xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems

I have this xml:

                 Test

Firefox will attempt to render this as html.

                Test

Firefox will attempt to parse this as xml.

The response type has no affect on Firefox behavior.

Is there any method to force the first file to be parsed as xml and not rendered as xhtml with the namespace include?

Any information  appreciated...

[xml-dev] xml rendering browser problems - 8/17/2010 3:19:00 PM

I have this xml:

    
                 Test
    


Firefox will attempt to render this as html.




    

                Test

    




Firefox will attempt to parse this as xml.

The response type has no affect on Firefox behavior.

Is there any method to force the first file to be parsed as xml and not rendered as xhtml with the namespace include?

Any information  appreciated...

Re: [xml-dev] [Summary] A little experiment to compare external - 8/16/2010 6:40:00 PM

At 2010-08-16 13:08 -0400, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>Please correct any errors I may have made.  /Roger
>
>Here is an XML document that declares and then uses an external entity:

"external general entity"

... you haven't talked about external parameter entities at all, so I 
think it would be important to the reader to know that you are only 
talking about some of the entities and not all of the entities.  In 
all your post you've been talking about general entities.

>External entities are part of the XML specification. Thus, external 
>entities are resolved by the XML parser. All XML parsers must 
>support external entities. So, the XML parser in IE and in Firefox 
>resolved the external entity reference.

As I cited, since "XML Parser" is not defined in the XML 
Specification as an official term, but an "XML Processor" is defined 
(the parsing is part of the processing, the processor supplies what 
is parsed to an application), that you not continue to use the term 
"XML Parser".  I grant that I see the term "parser" used in the 
specification, it has been creeping in since the Third Edition (which 
refers to it twice) and the Fourth and Fifth Editions refer to it 
three times.  I see that the second edition doesn't use the word at 
all as it was cleaned up from its use in the first edition.  My 
understanding is that was done in the second edition to clear up any 
confusion about an "XML Parser" since parsing is only part of the 
job, and that the second edition was clear there were only XML 
Processors that included a parsing activity, but there were not XML 
Parsers per se.

I hope this helps.

. . . . . . . . Ken

--
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Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
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RE: [xml-dev] A little experiment to compare external entities and - 8/16/2010 3:37:00 PM

At 2010-08-16 11:16 -0400, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>I wrote:
>
> >> 2.  elements are resolved by the XML parser, correct?
>
>And Ken Holman responded:
>
> > I wouldn't think so.  An XML processor is defined by the XML
> > specification and XInclude is a supplemental specification that isn't
> > part of the definition of XML.  I would expect an XInclude processor
> > (if such exist ... I haven't had to look for one) would incorporate
> > an XML processor and would give you what you want.
>
>I was under the impression that XInclude occurred within the XML 
>parser based on this statement that I read on another list:
>
>    "... that gets expanded during xml parsing (xinclude, ...)"
>
>The statement is false?

It is true for an XInclude processor.

It is false for an XML processor that implements only the XML specification.

Note Michael's wording:

> > Both Xerces-J and Xerces-C++ have support for XInclude.

They have chosen to support XInclude within their product.  "Have 
support for" doesn't imply that XInclude is a mandatory aspect of XML 
they are obliged to implement.

>Michael, do you mean that XInclude in built _within_ the Xerces-J 
>and Xerces-C++ XML parsers? Or, do you mean that the Xerces-J and 
>Xerces-C++ XML parsers are _supplemented_ (extended) with XInclude?

Since the XML Specification does not include XInclude, would that not 
imply that XInclude is a supplement to an XML processor?

. . . . . . . . Ken

--
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Re: [xml-dev] A little experiment to compare external entities and - 8/16/2010 2:55:00 PM

At 2010-08-16 10:33 -0400, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>I did a little experiment.
>
>I dragged and dropped this into Internet Explorer:
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>
>     
>]>
>
>
>     &Siddhartha;
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>
>The browser resolved the external entity reference and this is what I saw:
>
>
>
>
>     
>        Siddhartha
>        Hermann Hess
>        1951
>        0-553-20884-5
>        Bantam Books
>     
>
>
>
>Next, I dragged and dropped this into Internet Explorer:
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>     
>         
>     
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>
>The browser did NOT resolve the XInclude reference. I saw no change.

Doesn't surprise me.

>I repeated the experiment with the Firefox browser and it exhibited 
>the same behavior as Internet Explorer.
>
>QUESTIONS
>
>1. What should I conclude from this little experiment? Should I 
>conclude that the browsers support external entities but do not 
>support XInclude?

I would.  XInclude is not part of the XML specification ... it is a 
separate specification.

>2.  elements are resolved by the XML parser, correct?

I wouldn't think so.  An XML processor is defined by the XML 
specification and XInclude is a supplemental specification that isn't 
part of the definition of XML.  I would expect an XInclude processor 
(if such exist ... I haven't had to look for one) would incorporate 
an XML processor and would give you what you want.

But if something claims it supports XML I would not therefore 
conclude that it supports XInclude.

>By "resolve" I mean that the  element is replaced by the 
>contents of the file it references.

I thought XInclude processing was ambiguous:  for example, does one 
validate an instance with XInclude before or after the element is 
replaced with its contents?

>3. The XML parsers in IE and Firefox do not support XInclude, correct?

I doubt it ... they only claim to support XML.

>4. The XML parser in IE is MSXML, correct?

The XML processor in IE works very well.  The only thing I don't like 
about it is the way it builds the node tree for XSLT processing by 
implicitly tossing white-space-only text nodes that I may want to 
keep.  I very much like the way it processes declaration subsets.

>5. What is the XML parser in Firefox?

I don't know, but I have experienced it choking on some declaration 
subsets in ways that don't choke IE.

>6. What XML parsers support XInclude?

I would rather ask which XInclude processors are out there ... 
XInclude isn't part of XML.

BTW, regarding terminology from the introduction of XML, section 1.0:

    http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#sec-intro
    [Definition: A software module called an XML processor is
     used to read XML documents and provide access to their content
     and structure.]

I see that as restricting it to the XML specification, not including 
things like XInclude.

 From XInclude:

    http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/#intro
    This specification introduces a generic mechanism for merging
    XML documents (as represented by their information sets) for
    use by applications that need such a facility.

Which implies that you would need an XInclude processor for merging, 
not that XInclude somehow becomes part of what an XML Processor is 
obliged to support.

I hope this helps.

. . . . . . . . . Ken

--
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Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
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RE: [xml-dev] Getting XSD annotation from matched element - 8/13/2010 6:53:00 PM

I agree that directly processing XSD syntax representation is tricky and
complicated, and the alternative approach that introduces intermediate
representation such as the schema component model might be easier.
However, I have not been convinced that this is too complicated to do.
I found it's a rather intriguing practice. Of course, any solid
evidences, detailed advices would be greatly appreciated! 

I also think the restriction referred here should be able to be removed
by using the path to an instance node (instead of merely an instance
node) as a parameter. 

Lisa

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike@saxonica.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 10:39 AM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Getting XSD annotation from matched element

On 13/08/2010 17:56, Xia Li wrote:
> You might take a look at this XSLT function library provided with this
> article,
>
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-schemanode/
>
> You will find a set of XSLT functions that would allow you to locate
the
> schema component (the element declaration/type definition) for a given
> instance node.
>
> Lisa
>
>    

That's an amazingly ambitious library, thanks for the reference!

Unfortunately code that works directly from schema documents is usually 
wrong, at least in the sense that it cannot process arbitrary valid 
schemas. For example, the following restriction is documented, and rules

out many real schemas:

"The constraint of this algorithm is that a local element is not allowed

to be declared with the same name of a global element."

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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[xml-dev] [Summary] Eager and Just-in-Time loading of XML Schema - 8/7/2010 1:51:00 PM

Hi Folks,

Here is a summary of the recent discussions. Please notify me of any errors. /Roger

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following XML document references two XML Schemas: Library.xsd and Book.xsd

My Life and Times
Paul McCartney
1998
1-56592-235-2
Macmillan Publishing

...

When does an XML Schema validator load (into memory) the XML Schema documents? When will Library.xsd and Book.xsd be loaded?

Answer: It depends on whether they are coupled or independent.

-------------------------
CASE #1
-------------------------
Suppose Library.xsd and Book.xsd are coupled, i.e., Library.xsd imports Book.xsd.

Here's a snippet of Library.xsd:

Both schemas will be loaded at the same time--when the validator hits the element.

This is called eager loading. The validator loads the schemas that schemaLocation references, plus (recursively) all the schemas it imports and includes.

-------------------------
CASE #2
-------------------------
Suppose Library.xsd and Book.xsd are independent.

Here's a snippet of Library.xsd:

Library.xsd will be loaded when the validator hits the element. Book.xsd won't be loaded until the validator hits the element.

This is called just-in-time loading. The validator loads the schema only when it's needed.

-------------------------
CASE #3
-------------------------
Suppose Library.xsd imports and includes some XML Schemas (but not Book.xsd).

Here's a snippet of Library.xsd:

When Library.xsd is loaded, the schemas it imports and includes will also be loaded (eager loading). Book.xsd is not loaded until the validator hits the element (just-in-time loading). Thus, here we see a combination of eager and just-in-time loading.

I have confirmed that the following XML Schema validators have the eager and just-in-time loading behavior described above:

SAXON (Java and .NET) and Xerces-J

I have no information on these validators:

Xerces-C++, Xerces-Perl, Libxml, MSXML, or XSV.

EXPLOITING JUST-IN-TIME LOADING TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE

Consider this scenario:

1. Your XML document is very large.

2. The XML Schemas that will be used to validate the XML document are independent (or, the XML Schemas can be partitioned into independent sets).

One way to design your XML document is to specify all the XML Schemas upfront:

The disadvantage of this approach is that all the schemas will be loaded at once (eager loading). If there are a lot of schemas this could be slow.

A second approach is to specify a schema at the point where it's first needed. This will enable you to exploit the just-in-time loading capability of schema validators. This is illustrated here:

...
...

[xml-dev] Natasha Noy and Peter Yim keynote speakers at SERES (ISWC), - 8/3/2010 7:06:00 PM

==============================

CALL FOR PAPERS
==============================

1st International Workshop on Semantic Repositories for the Web (SERES 2010)

http://www.ontologydynamics.org/od/index.php/seres2010/


at the 9th International Semantic Web Conference

Natasha Noy and Peter Yim will be our keynote speakers at the 1st
International Workshop on Semantic Repositories for the Web (SERES 2010).


  http://iswc2010.semanticweb.org

November 7, 2010, in Shanghai, China
==============================



Ontologies and Linked Data vocabularies are being actively developed and
used by numerous applications. Several domains are making their vocabularies
available for others to reuse. In addition, good practices when developing
ontologies are often followed, particularly for producing reusable modules.
The Semantic Web is a modular and highly federated environment of reusable
knowledge sources; these provide the meaning so that SW applications change
our experience of the web. Within this context, the need for repositories
delivering the added value that makes the SW a concrete step beyond our
current experience of the web is palpable. SERES addresses issues around
semantic repositories within the context of the SW.



The number of ontologies being built and made available for reuse has
increased steadily in the last few years. Semantic Web search engines such
as Swoogle  and
Watson currently
index several tens of thousands of them; there are also systems specifically
designed to support the publication of ontologies, e.g.
Cupboard
, NCBO Bioportal , and
ONKI.
Some tools also support editing features, e.g.
Neologism
, Knoo dl . While being a foundation
for the Semantic Web, this new environment where ontologies are shared and
interlinked online also poses new challenges; fostering thus a number of
research projects aiming to understand, amongst others, ontology reuse,
storage, publication, versioning, quality control, evaluation, retrieval and
modularization. For instance, as part of the EU NeOn
project new
tools supporting Knowledge Engineering in the age of “networked ontologies”
have been developed, while in the EU OASIS project approaches from software
engineering and formalization are now also being applied to inter-connect
ontologies. Moreover, despite initial efforts, ontology repositories are
hardly interoperable *amongst themselves*. Although sharing similar aims
(providing easy access to Semantic Web resources), they diverge in the
methods and techniques employed for gathering these documents and making
them available; each interprets and uses metadata in a different manner.
Furthermore, many features are still poorly supported; for instance,
modularization, versioning, and the relationship between ontology
repositories and ontology engineering environments (editors) to support the
entire ontology lifecycle.



By the same token, there are several domains making available knowledge
resources; for instance, digital libraries such as Pubmed Central offer a
large collection of biomedical abstracts and, in some cases, open access to
the full document. Some researchers are starting to bridge the gap between
clinical and experimental data and literature; such connection is being
built via ontologies, some approaches have had BioPortal as their ontology
repository. Linked Data is also being explored as a means for publishers to
expose their content. Knowledge management over documents is actively aiming
to make real the notion of self-descriptiveness; being this intrinsically
related to various resources over the web providing meaning for atomic
component in documents –words, tables, figures, maps, etc. In order for
these systems to be successful, it is necessary to provide a forum for
researchers and developers to discuss features and exchange ideas on the
realization of repositories providing semantics. In addition, it is now
critical to achieve interoperability *between* these repositories, through
common interfaces, standard metadata formats, etc. SERES10 intends to
provide such a forum.



*Questions addressed by SERES10:*

·                How can semantic repositories support the realization of
the SW?

·                Semantic repositories, ontology repositories, knowledge
repositories, where are the boundaries? How are they interacting? Are they
changing our experience of the web?

·                How are domain specific knowledge repositories, such as
biomedical digital libraries, interconnecting knowledge in meaningful
manners?

·                How are e-government initiatives using and delivering
semantics and knowledge repositories?

·                How can ontology repositories support novel semantic
applications?

·                How can ontology repositories encourage the development of
high quality ontologies that are used routinely by relevant communities?

·                How can ontology repositories provide semantics for
applications?

·                How can ontology repositories contribute to the reuse of
ontologies across different domains and applications?

·               How can ontology repositories interoperate with one another
to support scalability, availability and distributed reasoning?

·                How can provenance and intellectual property information be
managed in and across ontology repositories?

·                How can the abundant and complex knowledge contained in
relevant ontology repositories be made comprehensible for users?

·                How can branching, versioning, mappings, dependencies and
configurations/compositions be managed in and across ontology repositories?

·                How can ontology repositories interoperate with related
applications such as ontology editors, automated reasoners, and rule
engines?

·                How can modularity be better supported in and across
ontology repositories; similarly, how could modularization be formalized?

·                How can ontology repositories support distributed
reasoning?

·                How can ontology repositories support corporate, national
and domain specific metadata/semantic infrastructures?

·                What measurements for describing and comparing ontologies
can we use? How could ontology repositories use these?



*Workshop Audience*

We want to bring together researchers and practitioners active in the
design, development and application of semantic web technology, semantic
registries and repositories, knowledge management systems, knowledge
repositories, repository editors, modularization techniques, versioning
systems and issues around federated ontology systems.  As some
repository-related tools are already under development, and repositories are
a crucial part of business infrastructure, we also address progressive Chief
Technology Officers interested in using these technologies.



IMPORTANT DATES
==============================

 Paper Submission Deadline   August 20, 2010, 23.50 Hawaii time
 Acceptance Notification       September 17, 2010
 Camera Ready                   October 7, 2010
 SERES Workshop (tentative date)               November 7, 2010



SUBMISSION AND PROCEEDINGS
==============================
Research papers are limited to 12 pages and position papers to 5 pages. For
system descriptions, a 5 page paper should be submitted. All papers and
system
descriptions should be formatted according to the LNCS format

http://www.springer.com/computer/lncs?SGWID=0-164-6-793341-0


Proceedings of
the workshop will be published online. Depending on the number and quality
of
the submissions, authors might be invited to present their papers during a
poster session.



Please submit your paper via EasyChair at
http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=seres10


Submissions that do not comply with the formatting of LNCS or that exceed
the
12 page limit (research papers) or 5 page limit (position papers and systems
descriptions) will be rejected without review.


We note that the author list does not need to be anonymized, as we do not
have
a double-blind review process in place.

Submissions will be peer reviewed by three independent reviewers. Accepted
papers have to be presented at the workshop and they will be included in the

workshop proceedings that are published online at CEUR-WS.



*Program Committee*



Natasha Noy, Stanford University, USA.

 Li Ding, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, USA.

John Bateman, Universität Bremen, Germany.

 Michael Kohlhase, Jacobs University, Germany.

Raul Palma, Poznan University, Poland.

Oscar Corcho, Universidad Politecnica de Madrid, Spain.

Fabian Neuhaus, University of Maryland, USA.

Aleman-Bonarges Meza, Universidad Politecnica de Victoria, Mexico

Christoph Lange,  Jacobs University, Germany.

Sandro Hawke, W3C.

Christopher Baker, University of New Brunswick, Canada.

Nigam Shah, Stanford University, USA.

Peter Haase, Institute of Applied Informatics and Formal Description
Methods, Germany.

Michael Gruninger, University of Toronto, Canada

Leyla Garcia, Bundeswehr University, Germany.

Benjamin Good, USA

Matthew Horridge, University of Manchester, UK





*Organizing Committee*

Alexander Garcia, University of Bremen
Mathieu d'Aquin,  Knowledge Media Institute of the Open University
Mike Dean, Principal Engineer at Raytheon BBN Technologies
Kenneth Baclawski, College of Computer and Information Science, Northeastern
University

-- 
Alexander Garcia
http://www.alexandergarcia.name/
http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/75943.html
http://www.linkedin.com/in/alexgarciac
Postal address:
Alexander Garcia, Tel.: +49 421 218 64211
Universität Bremen
Enrique-Schmidt-Str. 5
D-28359 Bremen

[xml-dev] ANN: LIBX* July 2010 Beta Release - 7/30/2010 5:02:00 AM

LIBX* is a project to implement XPath 2.0 and XSLT 2.0 using the Gnome libxml2 and libxslt libraries respectively.

LIBX* July 2010 Beta Release is now available for download from:

http://www.explain.com.au/libx

This release implements the xsl:function element.

A new mailing list has been set up for discussion of the LIBX* project. Go to http://www.explain.com.au/mailman/listinfo/libx to subscribe.

Steve Ball
Explain

[xml-dev] Big hierarchy of XML Schema documents ... which XML Schema - 7/28/2010 8:06:00 PM

Hi Folks,

Suppose that my XML Schema imports/includes some XML Schemas and they import/include some XML Schemas and so on. That is, there is a big hierarchy of XML Schema documents.

I envision two ways that XML Schema validators could be implemented:

1. On-demand: the validator brings in an XML Schema document only when it's needed. (On-demand/Just-in-time/Dynamic-Loading)

2. Not on-demand: when the validator brings in an XML Schema document it also brings in the XML Schema documents it imports/includes and the documents they import/include and so on. (What is the right term for this?)

I am interested to know how these XML Schema validators operate with regard to being on-demand or not. Can you help to fill in this table please:

                 On-demand      Not on-demand
SAXON (Java)

SAXON (.NET)

XERCES (Java)

XERCES (C++)

XERCES (Perl)

LIBXML

MSXML

XSV


/Roger

_______________________________________________________________________

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[xml-dev] [ANN] XQuery Update Facility Test Suite version 1.0.1 - 7/27/2010 9:39:00 PM

The XML Query Working Group would like to announce the availability of 
version 1.0.1 of the XQuery Update Facility Test Suite (XQUTS) [1]. This 
test suite reflects the XQuery Update Facility 1.0 Candidate 
Recommendation [2] that was published on June 9, 2009. It incorporates 
changes that have been made in response to comments we received on XQUTS 
1.0.0.

We have provided release notes [3], guidelines on how to run the test 
suite, how to provide feedback to us, and how to send your results to us.

We encourage implementors to run this test suite and provide their results 
to us. If enough positive results are received, then we will be able to 
request a transition to Proposed Recommendation. 

We encourage implementors that have already provided their results to us 
to send us their results for XQUTS 1.0.1. New test cases have been added, 
test cases have been modified and in one case the expected result for a 
test case has changed. The test suite catalog now identifies whether or 
not to run certain test groups, depending on whether the implementation 
being tested supports some of the optional features. See "Deciding which 
test cases to run" in our Guidelines for Running the XML Query Update Test 
Suite.


                                                -- Andrew

[1] XML Query Update Facility Test Suite
http://dev.w3.org/2007/xquery-update-10-test-suite/

[2] XQuery Update Facility 1.0
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/CR-xquery-update-10-20090609/ 

[3] XML Query Update Test Suite Release Notes
http://dev.w3.org/2007/xquery-update-10-test-suite/release_notes.html

--------------------
Andrew Eisenberg
IBM
5 Technology Park Drive
Westford, MA  01886

andrew.eisenberg@us.ibm.com

Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml - 7/26/2010 6:38:00 PM

This is essentially the core of what xmlsh does, except its based on 
XQuery not XSLT.
But it has lots o' bitty tools you can efficiently script together to 
work with xml.
Its also what XProc does although XProc does so in  XML Syntax.
So there are already such tools out there ...


-------------------------
David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org


On 7/26/2010 2:31 PM, Pete Cordell wrote:
>> So if you had:
>>
>> 
>> abc
>> 
>>
>> xgetnsprefix "http://somecomp.com" ns < in.xml | xchgeval $ns:foo 
>> newValue >
>> out.xml
>
> It's just occurred to me that there's no reason such shell scripts 
> couldn't be implemented using XSLT.
>
> The user gets the power of XSLT without the learning curve.
>
> Pete Cordell
> Codalogic Ltd
> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++
> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
> for more info
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cordell" 
> 
> To: "Andrew Welch" ; "Richard Salz" 
> 
> Cc: "xml-dev" 
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml
>
>
>>
>> Is there a list of types of operation such a community would like to do?
>> The below example hints that you might be able to come up with a set of
>> simple shell scripts (maybe implemented in perl/python/etc) that you 
>> could
>> pipe together, perhaps storing intermediate variables in the 
>> environment.
>>
>> So if you had:
>>
>> 
>> abc
>> 
>>
>> xgetnsprefix "http://somecomp.com" ns < in.xml | xchgeval $ns:foo 
>> newValue >
>> out.xml
>>
>> where  xgetnsprefix extracts the namespace prefix associated with 
>> "http://somecomp.com" and stores it in the shell variable ns and 
>> xchgeval changes the value of the specified element.
>>
>> No prizes for efficiency, but it depends whether human performance or 
>> computer performance is more important to you.
>>
>> Pete Cordell
>> Codalogic Ltd
>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++
>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
>> for more info
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Welch" 
>> 
>> To: "Richard Salz" 
>> Cc: "xml-dev" 
>> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 4:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26 July 2010 13:53, Richard Salz  wrote:
>>> I don't get it -- which community needs this xml-like thing? And why?
>>
>> The community that just wants to read or write very simple xml files.
>>
>> Given:
>>
>> 
>> abc
>> 
>>
>> ...and you want to update the value of , how would you do it?
>>
>> Or put more realisticly, a colleague of yours knows very little about
>> XML and all of its related technologies, and asks you how they should
>> do it.
>>
>> - XSLT transform
>> - XQuery update
>> - JDOM, XOM etc
>> - SAX parse and generate the events
>> - some data-binding tool (if an xsd exists)
>>
>> All fairly straight forward for the xml community, but to anyone else
>> each of those seem like a massive overkill for such a seemingly simple
>> task.  Perhaps there is a simple way that I've missed?
>>
>> The ultimate goal of hackable xml is to make it possible to just do a
>> string replace of "abc" with "newValue" (which
>> is often what happens anyway, causing many hours of fun) and then
>> serialize/reparse without any issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Andrew Welch
>> http://andrewjwelch.com
>> Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>>
>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>>
>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
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>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
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Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml - 7/26/2010 6:33:00 PM

> So if you had:
>
> 
>  abc
> 
>
> xgetnsprefix "http://somecomp.com" ns < in.xml | xchgeval $ns:foo newValue 
>  >
> out.xml

It's just occurred to me that there's no reason such shell scripts couldn't 
be implemented using XSLT.

The user gets the power of XSLT without the learning curve.

Pete Cordell
Codalogic Ltd
Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++
data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
for more info

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pete Cordell" 
To: "Andrew Welch" ; "Richard Salz" 

Cc: "xml-dev" 
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml


>
> Is there a list of types of operation such a community would like to do?
> The below example hints that you might be able to come up with a set of
> simple shell scripts (maybe implemented in perl/python/etc) that you could
> pipe together, perhaps storing intermediate variables in the environment.
>
> So if you had:
>
> 
>  abc
> 
>
> xgetnsprefix "http://somecomp.com" ns < in.xml | xchgeval $ns:foo newValue 
>  >
> out.xml
>
> where  xgetnsprefix extracts the namespace prefix associated with 
> "http://somecomp.com" and stores it in the shell variable ns and xchgeval 
> changes the value of the specified element.
>
> No prizes for efficiency, but it depends whether human performance or 
> computer performance is more important to you.
>
> Pete Cordell
> Codalogic Ltd
> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++
> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
> for more info
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andrew Welch" 
> To: "Richard Salz" 
> Cc: "xml-dev" 
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml
>
>
>
> On 26 July 2010 13:53, Richard Salz  wrote:
>> I don't get it -- which community needs this xml-like thing? And why?
>
> The community that just wants to read or write very simple xml files.
>
> Given:
>
> 
>  abc
> 
>
> ...and you want to update the value of , how would you do it?
>
> Or put more realisticly, a colleague of yours knows very little about
> XML and all of its related technologies, and asks you how they should
> do it.
>
> - XSLT transform
> - XQuery update
> - JDOM, XOM etc
> - SAX parse and generate the events
> - some data-binding tool (if an xsd exists)
>
> All fairly straight forward for the xml community, but to anyone else
> each of those seem like a massive overkill for such a seemingly simple
> task.  Perhaps there is a simple way that I've missed?
>
> The ultimate goal of hackable xml is to make it possible to just do a
> string replace of "abc" with "newValue" (which
> is often what happens anyway, causing many hours of fun) and then
> serialize/reparse without any issues.
>
>
>
> -- 
> Andrew Welch
> http://andrewjwelch.com
> Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
> 




_______________________________________________________________________

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Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml - 7/26/2010 6:16:00 PM

Original Message From: "Amelia A Lewis"

>> 4. Encoding must be UTF-8 (or some similar rule: its to remove the
>> potential mismatch between the encoding in the prolog and the actual
>> encoding)
>
> "   "
>
> Oh, hell, let's just make 'em all use ASCII, why not?

What real benefit do you get by allowing people to use UTF-16 LE/BE,
Shift-JIS, EBCIDIC etc?  The benefit doesn't seem to justify the cost to me.

Pete Cordell
Codalogic Ltd
Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++
data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
for more info
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amelia A Lewis" 
To: "Andrew Welch" 
Cc: "xml-dev" 
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml


>
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:08:24 +0100, Andrew Welch wrote:
>> 2. Entity refs no longer exist, other than the inbuilt ones.  There is
>> no DTD.  (numeric refs remain)
>
> If the inbuilt ones exist, why:
>> 5. Lone inbuilt entites such as "&" in the lexical XML are
>> automatically parsed as & and not an error (#2 above might enable
>> this). Same goes for a lone "<".
>
> And what does 'lone "<"' mean, anyway?  if (A <
> B) && (B > C) {...}
> Abandoning well-formedness in the name of simplicity is almost
> certainly the wrong approach to take.
>
> Without CDATA and entities, how do I supply an example of this syntax
> in the syntax?   [xml
> variant 1] == "Encode & as &amp; and < as &lt;" [xml
> variant 2] == "Encode & as &amp; and < as &lt;" [consequence of
> making & == & in this definition?]
>
> That's not simpler, that's more complex, and in theory more forgiving
> of "common errors".
>
>> 3. PIs, CDATA sections gone
>
> No stylesheets.
>
>> 4. Encoding must be UTF-8 (or some similar rule: its to remove the
>> potential mismatch between the encoding in the prolog and the actual
>> encoding)
>
> "   "
>
> Oh, hell, let's just make 'em all use ASCII, why not?
>
>> been involved with.  I have never, ever, seen 2 prefixes with
>> different namespaces in the same document.  There is no need to map a
>
> Heh.  I have, often enough.
>
>> prefix to a namespace, the prefix provides all the uniqueness
>> necessary within a domain, global uniqueness isn't needed.  This would
>
> ?  So, how big is the domain?
>
>> to make it "hackable" by the masses, keeping mixed content and
>> attributes, the reason why you would use xml in the first place.
>
> Is it?
>
>> The need is there - is there a reason why this can't be done?
>
> Based on the above, I don't think you're going to build momentum.  What
> you want and what I want, for instance, seem to be rather different
> (I'd like to see a less baroque "namespaces in XML", and XML entity
> definition without DTDs; abandoning well-formedness constraints strikes
> me as a bad idea introducing too much ambiguity; removing choice of
> encoding is equally wrong-headed, I believe, and making XPath simpler
> won't help if the common host languages for XPath are no longer
> referenceable via standard mechanisms such as a stylesheet PI).
>
> Amy!
> -- 
> Amelia A. Lewis                    amyzing {at} talsever.com
> Do you ever feel like putting your fist through a window just so you
> can feel something?
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml - 7/26/2010 6:16:00 PM

Is there a list of types of operation such a community would like to do?
The below example hints that you might be able to come up with a set of
simple shell scripts (maybe implemented in perl/python/etc) that you could
pipe together, perhaps storing intermediate variables in the environment.

So if you had:


  abc


xgetnsprefix "http://somecomp.com" ns < in.xml | xchgeval $ns:foo newValue >
out.xml

where  xgetnsprefix extracts the namespace prefix associated with 
"http://somecomp.com" and stores it in the shell variable ns and xchgeval 
changes the value of the specified element.

No prizes for efficiency, but it depends whether human performance or 
computer performance is more important to you.

Pete Cordell
Codalogic Ltd
Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++
data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
for more info
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Welch" 
To: "Richard Salz" 
Cc: "xml-dev" 
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] hackable xml



On 26 July 2010 13:53, Richard Salz  wrote:
> I don't get it -- which community needs this xml-like thing? And why?

The community that just wants to read or write very simple xml files.

Given:


  abc


...and you want to update the value of , how would you do it?

Or put more realisticly, a colleague of yours knows very little about
XML and all of its related technologies, and asks you how they should
do it.

- XSLT transform
- XQuery update
- JDOM, XOM etc
- SAX parse and generate the events
- some data-binding tool (if an xsd exists)

All fairly straight forward for the xml community, but to anyone else
each of those seem like a massive overkill for such a seemingly simple
task.  Perhaps there is a simple way that I've missed?

The ultimate goal of hackable xml is to make it possible to just do a
string replace of "abc" with "newValue" (which
is often what happens anyway, causing many hours of fun) and then
serialize/reparse without any issues.



-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com
Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/

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Re: [xml-dev] Understanding XML catalogs: what they are, why theyare - 7/22/2010 1:23:00 PM

Both Norm's Java implementation and my .NET implementation (which may have  
fallen off the net) implement 1.1 (although my .NET version skips some DTD  
support that I didn't think .NET users were likely to want).

Cheers, Tony.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:59:01 +0100, Piotr BaÅ„ski  wrote:

> David Carlisle <> wrote:
>
>> On 22/07/2010 12:54, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>> > can they be used with  elements?
>>
>> No
>>
>> They are mainly (perhaps only) applicable to specifying the locations of
>> dtd and external parsed entities, that is the SYSTEM and PUBLIC
>> identifiers defined in the grammar of XML.
>
> XML Catalogs 1(.1) appears to address this by introducing "URI  
> entries"[1]. I'm not sure if there is a freely available tool that  
> implements version 1.1 of the spec[2]. I'd love to know of one that does.
>
> [1]:  
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/14809/xml-catalogs.html#s.uri.ent
>
> [2]: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=304818
>
> Best,
>
>   Piotr
>
>
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Re: [xml-dev] Understanding XML catalogs: what they are, why they - 7/21/2010 10:04:00 PM

* David Carlisle wrote:
>> Notice that I created an external entity, xslt-file, and associated it with the URL, http://www.xfront.com/catalog-test/bookstore.xsl
>>
>>      
>>
>> Then, in the XSLT processing instruction I used the entity:
>>
>>      href="&xslt-file;"
>
>It's not possible to use enity or character references within a 
>processing instruction.

In this case, you can, see .
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
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Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/10/2010 6:11:00 AM

> On 09/07/2010 13:57, Michael Kay wrote:
>> n attribute values, > is reserved, which is pretty pointless, and this
>> is entirely due to SGML legacy, which allows the quotes around the
>> attribute value to be omitted.
>
> You mean < here rather than > (which can be used in attribute values)

Yes, sorry, got that wrong.

When XSLT serializes, it MUST escape "<" when generating XML, and it 
MUST NOT do so when generating HTML. Wish I could remember why.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 3:58:00 PM

On 09/07/2010 13:57, Michael Kay wrote:
> n attribute values, > is reserved, which is pretty pointless, and this
> is entirely due to SGML legacy, which allows the quotes around the
> attribute value to be omitted.

You mean  < here rather than > (which can be used in attribute values)
I think the main reason for not allowing < in attribute values is that
it saves explaining over and over again that
title="this title"
is the same as
title="<b>this</b> title"
rather than having a marked up string in an attribute. making it 
syntactically impossible stops people being lead astray. Although in 
practice it probably just makes people think xml syntax is arcane, and 
stick with html syntax where anything's allowed, but doesn't always mean 
what you expect it to mean.

 > Why is ]]> reserved when you're not in a CDATA section? I don't know
in SGML there were more marked sections than just CDATA (cf INCLUDE and 
IGNORE which are restricted to DTDs in XML) if you know ]]> doesn't 
appear in content then you can safely mark an entire range with a marked 
section and not have the range be unexpectedly terminated. Keeping the 
restriction in XML is pretty odd though:-)

David

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Re: [xml-dev] memory efficiency of xslt wrt to element and attribute - 7/9/2010 3:22:00 PM

On 09/07/2010 15:17, Nicholas Sushkin wrote:
> My question, is my reasoning still valid or it's been outdated by some
> improvements in memory efficiency of XSLT processors?

I'd be surprised if most xslt processors don't just store each element 
name once and then refer to them so it's just te hnumber of unique 
element names you need be concerned about.

David

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Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 3:21:00 PM

On 09/07/2010 14:09, Michael Glavassevich wrote:
>
> "]]>" --> "]]>"
>
> I guess you could also use a char ref for the ']' to break up the sequence.

or the eminently readable ]>

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Re: [xml-dev] memory efficiency of xslt wrt to element and attribute - 7/9/2010 2:48:00 PM

I think it's unlikely that using long element names will have a big 
impact on the memory size of the internal trees, unless the 
implementation is very inefficient. However, it may have an appreciable 
effect on parsing time; the "per character" loops in the XML parser can 
account for a significant amount of the total parsing time, and the 
parsing time is often substantial compared with the XSLT processing 
time. It's also likely that somewhere in the system software will be 
doing string comparisons to compare element names.

But as always with performance issues, don't try to make changes until 
you've made enough measurements to know where your bottlenecks are, and 
don't trade usability for performance unless that's what the project 
requirements dictate.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

On 09/07/2010 15:25, David wrote:
> I believe most decent processors will "intern" the element names so 
> they are not duplicated in memory.
> Simply making element names longer only makes the serialized text 
> format longer, not the in memory format (by much).
>
> Now the serialized text format can be important when transmitting the 
> XML text file across some boundry (or disk space),
> as well as the time it takes to originally parse it (number of disk 
> bytes read & size of string compars etc).
>
>
> -------------------------
> David A. Lee
> dlee@calldei.com
> http://www.calldei.com
> http://www.xmlsh.org
>
>
> On 7/9/2010 10:17 AM, Nicholas Sushkin wrote:
>> "Don't abbreviate without necessity" principle has been on my mind 
>> for quite a
>> while. However, I always thought of memory consumption. Say you're
>> transforming an XML file with 1 million P2E elements with XSLT 
>> processor.
>> There is a big difference in memory consumption between the two 
>> element name
>> styles.20  vs  is 5 
>> vs 30
>> characters and, since XSLT builds the whole tree in memory which say 
>> takes 4
>> times the size of the file, about 20Mb vs 120Mb. Why wouldn't you save
>> yourself some memory and trouble?
>>
>> My question, is my reasoning still valid or it's been outdated by some
>> improvements in memory efficiency of XSLT processors?
>>
>> Thanks
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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[xml-dev] memory efficiency of xslt wrt to element and attribute - 7/9/2010 2:31:00 PM

"Don't abbreviate without necessity" principle has been on my mind for quite a 
while. However, I always thought of memory consumption. Say you're 
transforming an XML file with 1 million P2E elements with XSLT processor. 
There is a big difference in memory consumption between the two element name 
styles. 20 vs  is 5 vs 30 
characters and, since XSLT builds the whole tree in memory which say takes 4 
times the size of the file, about 20Mb vs 120Mb. Why wouldn't you save 
yourself some memory and trouble?

My question, is my reasoning still valid or it's been outdated by some 
improvements in memory efficiency of XSLT processors?

Thanks
-- 
Nick

On Tuesday, July 06, 2010 19:27:30 Amelia A Lewis wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:22:13 -0400, ycao5@scs.carleton.ca wrote:
> >     I have a basic question for xml and xslt. The xml element node
> > 
> > name contains a "/". For example, an xml element node
> > (price-to-earnings ratio) is represented as P/E. The xml parser will
> > throw an exception for "/" follows P. How to correctly represent the
> > tag name containing "/"?
> 
> While  is not legal XML,  is.  So is
> .
> 
> dnt abrvt wo ncsty
> 
> Amy!

Re: [xml-dev] memory efficiency of xslt wrt to element and attribute - 7/9/2010 2:28:00 PM

I believe most decent processors will "intern" the element names so they 
are not duplicated in memory.
Simply making element names longer only makes the serialized text format 
longer, not the in memory format (by much).

Now the serialized text format can be important when transmitting the 
XML text file across some boundry (or disk space),
as well as the time it takes to originally parse it (number of disk 
bytes read & size of string compars etc).

-------------------------
David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org

On 7/9/2010 10:17 AM, Nicholas Sushkin wrote:
> "Don't abbreviate without necessity" principle has been on my mind for quite a
> while. However, I always thought of memory consumption. Say you're
> transforming an XML file with 1 million P2E elements with XSLT processor.
> There is a big difference in memory consumption between the two element name
> styles.20  vs  is 5 vs 30
> characters and, since XSLT builds the whole tree in memory which say takes 4
> times the size of the file, about 20Mb vs 120Mb. Why wouldn't you save
> yourself some memory and trouble?
>
> My question, is my reasoning still valid or it's been outdated by some
> improvements in memory efficiency of XSLT processors?
>
> Thanks
>    

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Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 1:58:00 PM

On 09/07/2010 13:42, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> 5. I am unable to think of an example in which the>  symbol could confuse an XML Parser. Would you provide an example please?
>

what makes you think there is an example?

David

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RE: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 1:45:00 PM

> what makes you think there is an example?

If there is no example, why is it a reserved symbol?

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: David Carlisle [mailto:davidc@nag.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 8:46 AM
To: Costello, Roger L.
Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character?

On 09/07/2010 13:42, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> 5. I am unable to think of an example in which the>  symbol could confuse an XML Parser. Would you provide an example please?
>

what makes you think there is an example?

David

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Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 1:33:00 PM

In character data, > isn't reserved, but ]]> is, so it's worth escaping 
 > anyway rather than only looking for those occurrences of > that are 
preceded by ]]. Why is ]]> reserved when you're not in a CDATA section? 
I don't know - arguably for robustness, in case the CDATA opener is 
mistyped. Or perhaps it's some SGML legacy I'm not aware of (there's a 
lot of it around).

In attribute values, > is reserved, which is pretty pointless, and this 
is entirely due to SGML legacy, which allows the quotes around the 
attribute value to be omitted.

Don't look for too much logic here. It's like asking why "a" is where it 
is on the keyboard. There's a historical explanation, but not a rational 
decision-making process.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 1:26:00 PM

On 09/07/2010 13:42, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

a perhaps more helpful answer

xml doesn't have any "reserved characters" (it does "reserve" the prefix 
xml in any case for possible future use though)

You can use > in attribute values and character data unquoted.
You need some way of quoting the character string ]]> which can't appear 
in character data, but that could be done without using & l t ;

If your question is why is that entity reference pre-defined, probably 
just for symmetry. If you get used to writing tests like a < b then 
it is rather natural to write b > a rather than remember that one is 
allowed and the other isn't.

David

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RE: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 1:12:00 PM

On example is "]]>". It isn't allowed in the content of an element, so you
have to escape it:

"]]>" --> "]]>"

I guess you could also use a char ref for the ']' to break up the sequence.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-CharData

Michael Glavassevich
XML Parser Development
IBM Toronto Lab
E-mail: mrglavas@ca.ibm.com
E-mail: mrglavas@apache.org

"Costello, Roger L."  wrote on 07/09/2010 08:53:42 AM:

> > what makes you think there is an example?
>
> If there is no example, why is it a reserved symbol?
>
> /Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Carlisle [mailto:davidc@nag.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 8:46 AM
> To: Costello, Roger L.
> Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character?
>
> On 09/07/2010 13:42, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> > 5. I am unable to think of an example in which the>  symbol could
> confuse an XML Parser. Would you provide an example please?
> >
>
> what makes you think there is an example?
>
> David
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England
> and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
> Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.
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RE: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 12:55:00 PM

> what makes you think there is an example?

If there is no example, why is it a reserved symbol?

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: David Carlisle [mailto:davidc@nag.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 8:46 AM
To: Costello, Roger L.
Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character?

On 09/07/2010 13:42, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> 5. I am unable to think of an example in which the>  symbol could confuse an XML Parser. Would you provide an example please?
>

what makes you think there is an example?

David

________________________________________________________________________
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[xml-dev] Why is the > symbol a reserved character? - 7/9/2010 12:50:00 PM

Hi Folks,

1. I understand why the < symbol in this element's data could confuse an XML Parser --

     if A < B then

-- and therefore it must be escaped:

     if A < B then


2. I understand why the & symbol in this element's data could confuse an XML Parser --

     Harper & Row

-- and therefore it must be escaped:

     Harper & Row


3. I understand why the ' symbol in this attribute's data could confuse an XML Parser --

     

-- and therefore it must be escaped:

     


4. I understand why the " symbol in this attribute's data could confuse an XML Parser --

     

-- and therefore it must be escaped:

     


5. I am unable to think of an example in which the > symbol could confuse an XML Parser. Would you provide an example please?

/Roger

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Re: [xml-dev] Polyglot Markup - serializer questions - 7/8/2010 9:19:00 PM

Also just found this from Uche Ogbuji explaining how to deal with some 
of the XML/HTML5 boundary issues:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think45/

-- 
Simon St.Laurent
http://simonstl.com/

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Re: [xml-dev] Polyglot Markup - serializer questions - 7/8/2010 7:08:00 PM

On 08/07/2010 17:37, David wrote: > Thanks to Twitter ( and @xquery ) I stumbled on this > > http://www.w3.org/TR/html-polyglot/ > > I think the goals are excellent, but I do have some questions for 'the > experts'. > > 1) Why is this useful instead of sticking to xhtml ? A lot of tools produce xhtml but experience shows that many sites (including w3c) then serve the resulting file as text/html (partly no doubt because IE doesn't really like xhtml much) this works when you are lucky but since the file is then parsed by an html parser rather than an xml one there is the possibility of getting a completely different parse tree than intended. For example if there are scripts using < or more or less any use of empty element syntax. The polyglot document tries to steer people to safe constructs that will produce more or less the same parse tree whether parsed as html or xhtml. The Abstract says > "Polyglot markup that meets these constraints as interpreted as > compatible, regardless of whether they are processed as HTML or as > XHTML, per the HTML5 specification" > But I dont quite get why this is necessary ? I'm sure I'm missing the > obvious, people dont (usually) write specs just for the fun of it. > > 2) New XML serializer implementations ? > The doc discusses the difference between empty tags which are EMPTY vs > not. E.g. says to use
but not

(instead use

) > This would imply (?) that an XML serializer would need to know when its > OK and not to compress empty tags. well an xhtm serialiser > Serializers such as Saxon with html encoding do this but they do it > differently ... e.g a
in XML becomes
in html mode. It's more like (but different in detail) to xslt 2's xhtml serialisation. But you can't just meet the constraints by serialisation options, as you need to avoid some constructs altogether. David ________________________________________________________________________ The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is: Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom. This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is powered by MessageLabs. ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

Re: [xml-dev] Polyglot Markup - serializer questions - 7/8/2010 6:33:00 PM

On 08/07/2010 17:37, David wrote: > > Does following this standard imply that we need new output methods for > serializers? I believe that this serialization method already exists. If you use method ="xhtml" then this does mostly what you describe. In particular, take a look at this section of the XQuery/XSLT serialization spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-xquery-serialization-11/#xhtml-output This mandates that in the XHTML output method elements without an empty content model get serialized with their full expansion (eg

) but elements with an empty content model are serialized as
. Thanks for pointing out the HTML Polyglot spec though, I was not aware of it. It would be interesting to see where the XHTML output mode differs from this. Oliver

Re: [xml-dev] Polyglot Markup - serializer questions - 7/8/2010 6:08:00 PM

> The doc discusses the difference between empty tags which are EMPTY vs > not. E.g. says to use
but not

(instead use

) > This would imply (?) that an XML serializer would need to know when > its OK and not to compress empty tags. > Serializers such as Saxon with html encoding do this but they do it > differently ... e.g a
in XML becomes
in html mode. > Does following this standard imply that we need new output methods for > serializers? This doesn't strike me as very different from what the XHTML output method already does. It has hard-coded knowledge of the vocabulary to distinguish elements with an empty content model from those that just happen to be empty, but one could equally well make the same decision based on access to a schema. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

Re: [xml-dev] Polyglot Markup - serializer questions - 7/8/2010 5:50:00 PM

On 7/8/10 12:37 PM, David wrote: > Thanks to Twitter ( and @xquery ) I stumbled on this > > http://www.w3.org/TR/html-polyglot/ > > I think the goals are excellent, but I do have some questions for 'the > experts'. I'm not an expert, but I am a sort of close observer. > 1) Why is this useful instead of sticking to xhtml ? The Abstract says > "Polyglot markup that meets these constraints as interpreted as > compatible, regardless of whether they are processed as HTML or as > XHTML, per the HTML5 specification" > But I dont quite get why this is necessary ? I'm sure I'm missing the > obvious, people dont (usually) write specs just for the fun of it. Well, the HTML5 folks did write their own parsing specs: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/parsing.html#parsing for about "the fun of it" so far as I can tell. I'm taking Polyglot Markup to be pretty much an update equivalent to the HTML Compatibility Guidelines from XHTML 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#guidelines Although... the DOCTYPE legacy string and obsolete permitted DOCTYPE string: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#the-doctype bring new levels of weird to these stories, something the Polyglot document seems to gloss. (If you thought the XML rules for DOCTYPE were a bit difficult to read...) There are still some large issues with XML processing of HTML5 documents containing entities that HTML5 seems to assume magically go away. For my own purposes, I'll be creating an HTML5 DTD once the spec is actually cooked. For the genuinely intrepid, there is also a RELAX NG + Schematron definition of the HTML5 vocabulary: http://syntax.whattf.org/ > 2) New XML serializer implementations ? > The doc discusses the difference between empty tags which are EMPTY vs > not. E.g. says to use
but not

(instead use

) > This would imply (?) that an XML serializer would need to know when its > OK and not to compress empty tags. > Serializers such as Saxon with html encoding do this but they do it > differently ... e.g a
in XML becomes
in html mode. > Does following this standard imply that we need new output methods for > serializers? Or do we have to force serializers to not do any empty > element optimization and leave it up to the input code generation/source ? > I think this might be difficult in something like xquery or xslt using > dynamic element construction where its not explicit which empty element > form is used. > e.g in xquery ... how does the serializer know to expand

but not >
? > > element { "p" } {} > element { "br" } {} This part I've never really understood, but it seems that some browsers have had problems dealing with empty tags (
) in certain circumstances. I do think it's a long-term challenge for serializers, but it hasn't stopped me from using ancient tools to create and reprocess HTML5 documents. I would strongly encourage XML folk to pay attention to HTML5. We're not precisely welcome in the conversation, if HTML5 rhetoric is to be taken seriously, but I suspect we might yet have some useful role to play improving this. -- Simon St.Laurent http://simonstl.com/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

[xml-dev] Polyglot Markup - serializer questions - 7/8/2010 5:36:00 PM

Thanks to Twitter ( and @xquery ) I stumbled on this http://www.w3.org/TR/html-polyglot/ I think the goals are excellent, but I do have some questions for 'the experts'. 1) Why is this useful instead of sticking to xhtml ? The Abstract says "Polyglot markup that meets these constraints as interpreted as compatible, regardless of whether they are processed as HTML or as XHTML, per the HTML5 specification" But I dont quite get why this is necessary ? I'm sure I'm missing the obvious, people dont (usually) write specs just for the fun of it. 2) New XML serializer implementations ? The doc discusses the difference between empty tags which are EMPTY vs not. E.g. says to use
but not

(instead use

) This would imply (?) that an XML serializer would need to know when its OK and not to compress empty tags. Serializers such as Saxon with html encoding do this but they do it differently ... e.g a
in XML becomes
in html mode. Does following this standard imply that we need new output methods for serializers? Or do we have to force serializers to not do any empty element optimization and leave it up to the input code generation/source ? I think this might be difficult in something like xquery or xslt using dynamic element construction where its not explicit which empty element form is used. e.g in xquery ... how does the serializer know to expand

but not
? element { "p" } {} element { "br" } {} -David -- ------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org

[xml-dev] [ANN] Release of XMLmind Document Repository v1.1 - 7/7/2010 7:58:00 AM

XMLmind is happy to announce the release of
XMLmind Document Repository v1.1.

XMLmind Document Repository, which is Open Source software,
can be freely downloaded from:

http://www.xmlmind.com/docrep/download.shtml
________________________________________________

Release of XMLmind Document Repository v1.1 (July 6, 2010)
----------------------------------------------------------

Made XMLmind Document Repository (XDR for short) as easy to
install and run as a desktop application:

   * Self-contained distribution now includes a private Jetty 7
     Servlet Container.

   * New graphical application xdrcontrol allows to stop,
     configure or reconfigure and start or restart both Jetty
     and the XDR WebApp.

   * Two new applications running in the Web browser allow to
     manage users and groups.

More information in
http://www.xmlmind.com/docrep/changes.html

What is XMLmind Document Repository?
----------------------------------------------------------

XMLmind Document Repository is a Web-based (WebDAV, REST)
document store designed for technical writers, featuring
automatic, transparent, versioning.

This Open Source Servlet-based Web Application is intended
to be the backend component of a future commercial offering.

________________________________________________





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[xml-dev] [2nd CfP] SAC 2011 Track on Coordination Models, Languages - 7/7/2010 7:34:00 AM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CALL FOR PAPERS

Coordination Models, Languages, and Applications (CM)
Special Track at the 26th Symposium on Applied Computing (SAC 2011)
TaiChung, Taiwan
March 21 - 25, 2011

(http://sac2011.apice.unibo.it/)


IMPORTANT DATES

Aug. 24, 2010: Paper submissions
Oct. 12, 2010: Author notification
Nov. 2, 2010: Camera-Ready Copy


For the past twenty-five years, the ACM Symposium on Applied Computing has been a primary gathering forum for applied computer scientists, computer engineers, software engineers, and application developers from around the world.


TRACK ON COORDINATION MODELS, LANGUAGES, AND APPLICATIONS 

Building on the success of the twelfth previous editions (1998-2010), a special track on coordination models, languages and applications will be held at SAC 2011. Over the last decade, we have witnessed the emergence of models, formalisms and mechanisms to describe concurrent and distributed computations and systems based on the concept of coordination. The purpose of a coordination model is to enable the integration of a number of, possibly heterogeneous, components (processes, objects, agents) in such a way that the resulting ensemble can execute as a whole, forming a software system with desired characteristics and functionalities which possibly takes advantage of parallel and distributed systems. The coordination paradigm is closely related to other contemporary software engineering approaches such as multi-agent systems, service-oriented architectures, component-based systems and related middleware platforms. Furthermore, the concept of coordination exists in many other Computer Science areas such as workflow systems, cooperative information systems, distributed artificial intelligence, and internet technologies.

After more than a decade of research, the coordination paradigm is gaining increased momentum in state-of-the-art engineering paradigms such as multi-agent systems and service-oriented architectures: in the first case, coordination abstractions are perceived as essential to design and support the working activities of agent societies; in the latter case, service coordination, orchestration, and choreography are going to be essential aspects of the next generations of systems based on Web services.

The Special Track on Coordination Models, Languages and Applications takes a deliberately broad view of what constitutes coordination. Accordingly, major topics of interest this year will include:

- Novel models, languages, programming and implementation techniques
- Applications of coordination technologies
- Industrial points of view: experiences, applications, open issues
- Internet- and Web-based coordinated systems
- Coordination of multi-agent systems, including mobile agents, intelligent agents, and agent-based simulations
- Coordination in Service-oriented architectures and Web Services 
- Languages for service description and composition 
- Models, frameworks and tools for Group Decision Making 
- Modern Workflow Management Systems and Case-Handling 
- Coordination in Computer Supported Cooperative Work 
- Software architectures and software engineering techniques 
- Configuration and Architecture Description Languages 
- Coordination Middleware and Infrastructures 
- Coordination in GRID systems 
- Self-organization-based approaches to coordination such as those based on swarm and stigmergy 
- Coordination technologies, systems and infrastructures 
- Relationship with other computational models such as object oriented, declarative (functional, logic, constraint), programming or their extensions with coordination capabilities 
- Formal aspects (semantics, reasoning, verification)


PROCEEDINGS

Papers accepted for the Special Track on Coordination Models, Languages and Applications will be published by ACM both in the SAC 2011 proceedings and in the Digital Library.


PAPER SUBMISSION AND FORMAT

All papers should represent original and previously unpublished works that currently are not under review in any conference or journal.

The author(s) name(s) and address(es) must NOT appear in the body of the paper, and self-reference should be in the third person. This is to facilitate blind review. Only the title should be shown at the first page without the author's information.

Submitted papers must be no longer than 6 pages and in the ACM two-column page format (doc template, pdf template, latex template). It will be possible to have up to 2 extra pages in the proceeding at a charge of $80 per page (total 8 pages maximum).

Submission is entirely automated via the STAR Submission System, which is available from the main SAC Web Site:http://www.acm.org/conferences/sac/sac2011/.


PC MEMBERS

Farhad Arbab, CWI Amsterdam and Leiden University (Netherlands)
Marcello Bonsangue, Leiden University (Netherlands)
Rocco De Nicola, University of Firenze (Italy) 
Jose Fiadero, University of Leicester (Italy) 
Keith Harrison-Broninski, Role Modellers Ltd (UK)
Kurt Lichtner, Sybase iAnywhere (Canada)
Henry Muccini, University of l'Aquila (Italy)
Andrea Omicini, University of Bologna (Italy)
Manuel Oriol, University of York (UK)
Razvan Popescu, Trinity College Dublin (Ireland)
Antonio Porto, University of Porto (Portugal)
Rosario Pugliese, University of Florence (Italy)
Alessandro Ricci, University of Bologna (Italy)
Davide Rossi, University of Bologna (Italy)
Yasuyuki Tahara, National Institute of Informatics (Japan)
Carolyn Talcott, SRI International (USA)
Emilio Tuosto, University of Leicester (UK)
Michael Ignaz Schumacher, University of Applied Sciences (Switzerland)
Robert Tolksdorf, Freie Universitaet Berlin (Germany)
Mirko Viroli, University of Bologna (Italy)
George Wells, Rhodes University (South Africa)
Herbert Wiklicky, Imperial College London (UK)
PaweÅ‚ T. Wojciechowski, PoznaÅ„ University of Technology (Poland)


TRACK CO-CHAIRS

Matteo Casadei,
Alma Mater Studiorum - Universita' di Bologna, Italy








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Re: [xml-dev] How to represent P/E correctly? - 7/6/2010 11:32:00 PM

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:22:13 -0400, ycao5@scs.carleton.ca wrote: > I have a basic question for xml and xslt. The xml element node > name contains a "/". For example, an xml element node > (price-to-earnings ratio) is represented as P/E. The xml parser will > throw an exception for "/" follows P. How to correctly represent the > tag name containing "/"? While

is not legal XML, is. So is . dnt abrvt wo ncsty Amy! -- Amelia A. Lewis amyzing {at} talsever.com To be whole is to be part; true voyage is return. -- Laia Asieo Odo (Ursula K. LeGuin, "The Dispossessed") _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

Re: [xml-dev] How to represent P/E correctly? - 7/6/2010 10:00:00 PM

On 05/07/2010 20:22, ycao5@scs.carleton.ca wrote:

XML element names can only contain letters and digits and a few special 
characters such as ".", "-", and "_". The "/" character is one of very 
many characters that is not allowed. You will have to choose a different 
element name. There are an infinite number to choose from, and they are 
all equally "correct". If you are looking for an algorithm that will 
generate a valid element name from any character string, then you could 
consider replacing non-alphanumeric characters with _NNN_ where NNN is 
the numeric value of the Unicode codepoint. It might have been nice if 
the spec designers had allowed numeric character references (&#NNN;) to 
appear in element names, but for some reason they didn't.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

>
> Hello,
>
>     I have a basic question for xml and xslt. The xml element node 
> name contains a "/". For example, an xml element node 
> (price-to-earnings ratio) is represented as P/E. The xml parser will 
> throw an exception for "/" follows P. How to correctly represent the 
> tag name containing "/"?
>
>     Thank you.
>
> Yang
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
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>
>

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Re: [xml-dev] How to represent P/E correctly? - 7/6/2010 9:49:00 PM

At 2010-07-05 15:22 -0400, ycao5@scs.carleton.ca wrote:
>     I have a basic question for xml and xslt. The xml element node
>name contains a "/".

This is not possible.  The XML syntax does not support the use of "/" 
in name tokens.  Please see:

   http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#NT-Name

>For example, an xml element node
>(price-to-earnings ratio) is represented as P/E. The xml parser will
>throw an exception for "/" follows P.

As it should.

>How to correctly represent the tag name containing "/"?

That is not possible because it isn't correct.

You might consider using a name like  since it is not legal 
syntax to write .

I hope this helps.

. . . . . . Ken

--
XSLT/XQuery training:   after http://XMLPrague.cz 2011-03-28/04-01
Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
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Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc
Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal


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[xml-dev] How to represent P/E correctly? - 7/6/2010 9:09:00 PM

Hello,

     I have a basic question for xml and xslt. The xml element node  
name contains a "/". For example, an xml element node  
(price-to-earnings ratio) is represented as P/E. The xml parser will  
throw an exception for "/" follows P. How to correctly represent the  
tag name containing "/"?

     Thank you.

Yang



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